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THE MORMON CURTAIN
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2008 Exmormon Foundation Conference Oct. 17 - 19, 2008
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The time is flying! And time to remind everyone again about the Exmormon Foundation coming up October
17-19, 2008.
Please join us for our annual weekend of education, enlightenment, personal stories, and mingling with a group of interesting and brave people who are exploring life after Mormonism.
Embassy Suites Hotel, Salt Lake City, UT Click here for details: http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/200....
Amazing line up of activities and speakers for 2008, including Steven Hassan - mental health counselor and expert on cults!
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APOLOGISTS
Total Articles:
27
Apologists for the Mormon Church are those who devote time to defend the Mormon Church, doctrines, leaders and teachings.
FARMS and FAIR are the two main Mopologetic organisations devoted to defending Mormonism. Other Mopologists such as Jeff Lindsay are on the fringes of Mopology.
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Apologists neuter Mormonism by diluting the strength of the most basic element of Mormonism - continuing revelation. Due to their awareness of problematic past prophetic teachings - some of which occured over the pulpit, some of which occured in conjunction with "revelation" - they have been forced into a position that diminishes revelation. Revelation becomes a somewhat ambigious, flawed process, during which prophets may mistake their own ideas for God's.
A good example of this phenomenon is the Zelph incident. (the white Lamanite, whose bones JS found in, IIRC, Missouri) JS' statements concerning this "white Lamanite" are verified in at least six sources (using strict standards). JS made these statements after receiving a "revelation" on the matter.
Go try to have a conversation with apologists who support LGT (which they all do now-a-days) about Zelph. You will discover that their basic argument is that we don't really know which specific statements JS attributed to revelation. In essence, they are saying JS just shot off at the mouth after receiving a revelation, and added stuff he just made up to what God told him.
This seems to be the pattern for apologists in general. Bring up the priesthood ban, bring up past statements about race, bring up the prophets who taught the hemispheric model of the BoM, etc etc - it all becomes the same rationalization. Revelation, according to those who defend the church the most vociferously, is ambigious, and apparently easy to misinterpret, and prophets can't resist putting in their own two cents along with God's two cents.
Inevitably, the question occurs to me - then how can apologists justify viewing ANY prophetic teaching with authority? Of course, there is no answer to this question. I suspect they know it, I suspect, deep down, they realize the vulnerable position they've been forced to take.
to tell the truth, in a way I feel sorry for these guys. It's like a defense attorney trying to defend someone everyone but the accused's mother knows did the crime. Of course, OJ's team convinced 12 jurors, so we shouldn't be surprised that the apologists do succeed, at times, in convincing Mormons. The desire to BE convinced - both with OJ and Mormons - is a large factor in their success.
| This Description Of Apologist Struck Me Like A Lightening Bolt Article Archived: Tuesday, Mar 8, 2005, at 10:37 AM Stored Under Topic: APOLOGISTS Outside Link To Article: RIGHT CLICK - COPY LINK LOCATION Original Author Of Article: Argar Largar | TOP | |
This is from Will Bagley's Blood of the Prophets (pages 330-331) describing the work of future apostle Charles Penrose and Apostle Franklin D. Richards to vindicate the Church against public sentiment that "the church practiced Blood Atonement and that Brigham Young had ordered the Mountain Meadows massacre."
"As Richard's diary indicates, LDS historians were not overly concerned with the facts of the case. By doctoring problematic evidence and ignoring records from the Utah War that contradicted [Brigham] Young's later sworn statements, they violated even the primitive historical standards of their time, but their success in assembling a credible defense of the dead prophet was a tribute to their skill. As deeply religious men, they felt they were doing the Lord's work. A simple *syllogism dominated the labor of these devout Mormon historians: Brigham Young was a prophet; prophets do not commit mass murder; therefore, Brigham Young was not responsible for the Mountain Meadows massacre. Their beliefs justified defending the great man's beleaguered reputation by any means necessary. Whatever their sins as historians, these men were devoted to defending the LDS church and resolving its most vexing historical problem, the grim legacy of Mountain Meadows."
*syllogism -- 1 : a deductive scheme of a formal argument consisting of a major and a minor premise and a conclusion (as in "every virtue is laudable; kindness is a virtue; therefore kindness is laudable") 2 : a subtle, specious, or crafty argument 3 : deductive reasoning
This statement had an immediate impact on me. If I was still TBM I would describe that moment as one of gaining pure intelligence and understanding. It hit me how TBMs and apologists think:
Joseph Smith was a prophet. Prophets do not make up revelations and visions. Therefore, all of Joseph Smith's revelations and visions were true.
Brigham Young was a prophet. Prophets do not have their critics attacked and killed. Therefore, Brigham Young did not have his critics attacked and killed.
Brigham Young was a prophet. Prophets do not obstruct justice by shielding the guilty. Therefore, Brigham Young did not obstruct justice.
Wilford Woodruff was a prophet. When prophets announce a revelation stopping all new polygamous marriages then the leaders and members of the church follow that revelation. Therefore, there was no new polygamous marriages after the Manifesto.
Gordon Hinckley is a prophet. Prophets speak with God. Therefore, Gordon Hinckley speaks with God.
| Inside the minds of LDS apologists - An examination of their tactics and thought patterns.
Formerly, the most visible Mormon apologetic efforts were found in FARMS Review Of Books, a print journal whose contributors
were, for the most part, highly educated. With the advent of the Internet, however, defenders of the Mormon faith are much, much
more common, and the amateurs can post their views just as easily--and as often--as the professionals.
Having interacted quite heavily with all varieties of Mormon apologists over the years, especially on Internet-based discussion
boards, I have identified several key assumptions that dominate their thinking. This essay will help you "get inside their
heads" so their defenses can be more easily anticipated. Their beliefs and assumptions are these:
- All sources which are favorable to the LDS church are true. All sources which are unfavorable to the LDS church are false.
Author and historian D. Michael Quinn said it best: "Apologists extend the broadest possible latitude to sources they
agree with, yet impose the most stringent demands on sources of information the apologists dislike" (Early Mormonism and the
Magic World View, Revised and Expanded Edition. Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1998. p. 47). Like clockwork, any statement or
document which makes the LDS church look good is automatically assumed to be 100% reliable, whereas any statement or document
which makes the LDS church look bad is automatically assumed to be "biased" and "anti-Mormon," which in an apologist's mind
immediately translates to "false." Amazingly, they never see their own double-standard, namely that pro-LDS sources are usually
just as (if not more) "biased," only in the opposite direction.
This may seem like an over-generalization, and Mormon apologists are sometimes quick to point that out, but it is,
amazingly, true: If one asks an LDS apologist which statement hostile to Mormonism is true and reliable, they are unable to come
up with a response.
- Anyone who disagrees--however slightly--with any aspect of Mormonism is automatically an anti-Mormon whose views can be
dismissed out-of-hand.
Once again, the apologists themselves routinely deny operating this way, but "the proof is in the pudding:" In actual
practice, if someone voices his or her disagreement with any part of Mormonism, then his or her views are immediately discounted
as being "anti-Mormon," no matter how many facts, sources, and documentation he or she uses to back up his or her statements.
For example, LDS apologists usually dismiss the horrific accounts of polygamy found in the book Wife Number 19, since the
author was a critic of Mormonism. This is in spite of the following three facts:
- The author was a former polygamous wife of Brigham Young,
- As such, she was often privvy to the goings-on at the highest levels of Mormonism, and
- All her formative years took place in early Utah when polygamy was at its height.
Apologists routinely discount her as "a disgruntled former member with an axe to grind." Unfortunately for them, she
wasn't born disgruntled. Pro-LDS people never admit that she had a number of extremely good reasons for becoming disgruntled in
the first place.
Interestingly, this assumption often spills over onto sincere Mormons who are having struggles with some part of their
religion and who innocently ask questions in order to resolve their concerns. Apologists often assume that the questioner is a
"troll," in this case an ex-Mormon trying to bait the apologists or otherwise set a trap for them. As a result of having been
treated this way, more than one member has become convinced that LDS apologetics is intellectually bankrupt--along with the
church itself--and left Mormonism entirely.
- Apologists are unable to distinguish between possibilities and probabilities.
When they come up with defenses for their faith, LDS apologists and their sympathizers automatically assume that the
scenario they've concocted, however unlikely, is "good enough" to provide Mormonism with an "out," at which point all criticism
is dismissed. For example, when it comes to the Book of Abraham controversy, the characters written down the left margins of
three of the four manuscripts prove that the recovered papyrii were indeed the source of the Book of Abraham and not any "missing
black and red scroll." Yet some apologists say that the scribes went "maverick" and wrote the characters in the margins on their own without any input from Joseph. The fact is that Joseph was broken of his habit of loaning out scriptural manuscripts way
back in 1828. The idea that he would let scribes "have their way" with such important documents may be an extremely remote
possibility, but is not a probability by any means.
- If a scientist or anti-Mormon is wrong about one thing, it is safe to assume that he or she is wrong about everything.
FARMS Review of Books was the pioneer of this apologetic tactic. Often, after sniping away at one minor quibble in a
critical book, they discount everything in the entire volume and advise their readers to do likewise.
This tactic has since gained great popularity and is used by LDS defenders of all stripes. For example, nowadays, if an
article appears showing how some prior scientific assumption has turned out to be incorrect, apologists then "take the ball and
run with it," making arguments which boil down to, "You see? Scientists are often wrong anyway. Therefore we can discount
anything they say regarding the Lamanite/DNA issue." Yet they fail to recognize that although scientists may be wrong about some
aspect of the DNA controversy, it hardly follows that they're entirely wrong on all aspects of it and that the Lamanites are,
therefore, the principal ancestors of the American Indians.
- Apologists routinely accuse critics of "telling us what we believe." They follow up by saying, "We are the authorities on
what we believe, not the critics."
This line of thinking is more common among the less-educated apologists. This is because their ignorance of their own
history has rendered them unable to recognize that their religion has changed and evolved over the years. Such apologists assume
that the church they have come to know--three hours of church on Sunday, Boy Scount campouts, home teaching, Relief Society
activity night, etc.--is the way Mormonism always was. Unfortunately, Mormonism in its early years had far more in common with
the Branch Davidian compound than it does to Mormonism today.
Defenders of Mormonism put this catch-phrase to good use when they need to deny or discount embarrassing statements from
past prophets, especially Brigham Young. They fall into the trap of interpreting all previous prophetic pronouncements through
the lenses of modern-day Mormonism as opposed to going by the plain-English meaning. For example, when responding to Brigham
Young's teaching that Adam "is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do," apologists assume that it is utterly impossible that he meant exactly what he said.
(Unknown to them, this sends the apologists on the slippery-slope of believing that their interpretation of the prophets'
words--not the prophets' interpretations themselves--are correct. See my webpage on Internet Mormonism vs. Chapel Mormonism for
a more in-depth exploration of this subject.)
- Apologists often respond to a challenge with the phrase, "that's been debunked countless times already."
Although it is true that Mormon apologists have been active nearly as long as Mormonism has existed, it does not follow
that all their attempts to refute their critics have succeeded. I am unaware of any objection to Mormonism that hasn't been
addressed to some degree, but at the same time I am aware of very, very few such objections that have ever been addressed
competently or believably. Pro-Mormons almost universally fail to recognize that there is a huge difference between an "adequate
refutation" and a "lame excuse"--and pro-Mormons produce far, far more of the latter than they do the former. For example, when
an anti-Mormon brings up Joseph Smith's marital infidelities, LDS defenders often claim that Joseph Smith was sealed to his
already-married plural wives for eternity only--to provide salvation for them--and not for "time." This excuse hardly counts as
a "debunking" and is, of course, much closer to a "lame excuse," since these women could just as easily have been sealed for
eternity to their legal husbands as to Smith.
- All arguments are made in a vacuum.
In other words, defenders of the LDS faith are inconsistent and do not apply their logic in one scenario to all scenarios.
A good case is the horse/deer debate surrounding The Book of Mormon. Specifically, they sometimes claim that Book of Mormon
peoples used the tapir as a pack and riding animal, but since Joseph Smith was unfamiliar with tapirs he used the name of the
animal that filled the same role in his own society--the horse. However, apologists conveniently forget their own argument when
it comes to the curelom/cummom debate. They say that Joseph used the original Nephite words because he didn't know the
equivalent English names of these animals.
(This methodology also extends outside of Mormonism. Specifically, apologists rarely, if ever, apply their defenses of
Mormonism to other religions. For example, they nearly always extoll the "milk before meat" approach to potential LDS converts,
but castigate the Scientologists for their pattern of withholding vital information from their own recruits.)
| Why Xtian Apologetics Are Just Like Mormon Apologetics Article Archived: Tuesday, Aug 9, 2005, at 09:54 AM Stored Under Topic: APOLOGISTS Outside Link To Article: RIGHT CLICK - COPY LINK LOCATION Original Author Of Article: Anonymous | TOP | |
Because they both use their own documents to justify their mythologies.
Farkle wrote a Calculus Crusaderesqe rebuttal to The resurrection has not been "debunked" thread of 5thGenMo--No6thComing with a clever "Sorry, bumpkin, but you are wrong" and a link to one of the lamest, yet cloyingly quoted, xtian apologetics discourse on Tacitus with such amazing rebuttals as "so what?[sic]" and "but it is impossible to know for certain" which is the last lame refuge of xtian (and mormon) apologetics.
In other words, "Because you can't prove our undocumented assertions wrong, they might be right and should receive the same credibilty as facts."
Sorry Farkle although your responses are terse like CC they are just as useless.
| A thread on this BB (Ex-Mormon Recovery Group) a couple of weeks ago asked about former LDS apologists who had decided that the church was false, and had left it and gone over to the "anti-Mormon" side. One of the most remarkable examples of that category was Benjamin Winchester, who joined the church in his teens, was an intimate acquaintance of Joseph Smith for many years, and authored apologetic and doctrinal works which were on the same level of those of Parley and Orson Pratt. For details, go to Dale Broadhurst's website at:
http://sidneyrigdon.com/Classics1.htm
Scroll down to Winchester's name to browse his 1840's apologetic productions. Many years after he left the church, Winchester gave two interviews which contain information that is vital to understanding early Mormonism and the true character of Joseph Smith. Winchester's remarks came back to my mind this morning, when I read Van Hale's latest remarks from his radio show, transcribed by Nightingale, wherein he defended polygamy as a holy practice which served a noble social purpose, and defended Joseph Smith's character on the issue. Winchester's recollections of Smith's character are strikingly different from the sanitized, deified image that modern Mormons have been spoon-fed by the church. And of course, apologists like Hale will predictably dismiss Winchester's remarks as the bitter lies of an angry apostate.
Anyhoo, here are a few of Winchester's recollections, for those who don't want to read the entire articles. As I read them, my biggest thought was how similar Winchester's experiences and feelings were upon learning of the fraudulence of the church to those of many of us Ex-Mormons here more than a century later. Enjoy.
From the Winchester interview titled "Primitive Mormonism" at
http://www.lavazone2.com/dbroadhu/UT/...
"When I returned to Kirtland the temple was nearly completed, and during that winter -- 1835 and 1836 -- its dedication occurred. That ceremony ended in a drunken frolic -- one of the worst I ever saw. Joseph Smith BECAME BEASTLY INTOXICATED And his father and brother, Hyrum, begged that the wine should be taken away, so that the carousal might be stopped as soon as possible. I did not know Joseph to be what is termed a 'common sot,' but that was not the last time I saw him intoxicated."
"After that dedication the Mormons organized what they termed 'the school of prophets.' A revelation prior to that time had given Oliver Cowdery the privilege of nominating the twelve apostles of the Church. About the time of this organization there was a good deal of scandal prevalent among a number of the Saints concerning Joseph's licentious conduct, this more especially among the women. Joseph's name was then connected with scandalous relations with two or three families. Apparently to counteract this he came out and made a statement in the Temple, before a general congregation that he was authorized by God Almighty to establish His Kingdom -- that he was God's prophet and God's agent, and that he could do whatever he should choose to do, therefore the Church had NO RIGHT TO CALL INTO QUESTION Anything he did, or to censure him, for the reason that he was responsible to God Almighty only. This promulgation created a great sensation -- a schism occurred and a large portion of the first membership, including the best talent of the Church, at once withdrew from it. This was during the summer of 1836."
"In the winter of 1839 and 1840 Smith, in company with Rigdon and with Porter Rockwell, acting as a sort of body guard, FLED FROM THE OFFICIALS That were after them, acting for the State of Ohio, on the charge of criminal practice at Kirtland, and they came to Philadelphia where I was stationed and where I was stake president. There they remained with me in the best degree of secrecy that could be maintained. Smith and I slept in the same bed and Porter Rockwell occupied a bed near the foot of our couch in the capacity of a body guard for the "prophet." It was there and at that time that I had a good opportunity to study the character of the "prophet." It then began to be apparent to me that he was tyrannical by nature, a libertine, in short a gross, sensual, corrupt man, but I was then still young and hopeful and it remained for events in a few brief years thereafter to fully open my eyes to the gigantic delusion I had been drawn into."
"It was a subject of common talk among many good people in Nauvoo that many of the elders were sent off on missions merely to get them out of the way, and that Joseph Smith, John C. Bennett and other prominent Church lights had illicit intercourse with the wives of a number of the missionaries, and that the revelation on spiritual marriage, i.e. polygamy, was gotten up to protect themselves from scandal."
"Joseph was very bitter in some of his public discourses relative to the talk among people about his lewdness, especially the women gossipers. On one occasion he said these women deserved to be threshed. One of the brethren, Badlam by name, took his suggestion in a literal sense: he went home from the meeting and gave his wife a severe whipping, which circumstance became the talk of the town."
"He was possessed with an inordinate degree of vanity and was quite susceptible to flattery. He was a perfect adept in the use of abusive and obscene language."
From Winchester's "final testimony" at
http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/1...
"What kind of man was Smith?"
"I have entertained him for a month at a time while we lived in Philadelphia, while he was hiding from a mob. There was not a particle of true religion in him. His talk was never about anything pure or elevating. He liked to talk about be[ing] a great general or leader, and commanding people, and getting before the public. He could not reason on anything. He was well versed in Billingsgate vocabulary. Well versed in blackguard language for his evidences. He liked to use slang and cutting remarks on his persecutors. He loved to give orders to the church and to show authority. As a boy he was wild and curious. His mother and father expected great things of him. He carried what he called a 'Peep stone' through which he claimed to see hidden treasure & etc. This is what he afterwards called his 'Urim and Thummem.' Finally he took the notion to get up a book. Then he claimed to have made the discovery of the plates. Then he got Cowdery, Harris and Whitmer into it."
"Why did you join his church knowing all these things?"
"I was just 15 when I joined it, so as I was young, I was led into it, not seeing any more truth any where else. There were not over 150 members when I joined it. I kept educating myself. I often saw Smith's bad conduct but they admonished me to keep on. They pointed out to me just as bad things in other churches. They pointed to the men of the bible, how wicked many of them were, and how oppressive they were; yet that God approved of them -- so I kept on and thought it was all right.
"They showed me how God 'took the weak things to confound the wise' & etc. After Smith died I left them and have had nothing to do with them since, though I had written much in their defense."
"Was Smith prayerful?"
"No. He often stopped at my house and though I have asked him to say grace at the table or to offer family prayers he always refused. There was not a particle of piety in him. He never wanted to talk on piety or any thing religious or on piety, but always on some ideas of greatness, etc."
"Smith was a perfect libertine. Women got to running after him because they believed him to be a prophet. The whole church is a rotten concern."
"A Professor of the Electic college of Cincinnatti got to running around with Smith. His name was John C. Bennet. They ran with other men's wives so much that much trouble arose over it. Then Bennet got up this revelation on polygamy, which was a fraud, to cover their perfidy. He got out of Nauvoo before Smith's assassination, but he and Smith had a "big time" before that."
| When Apologists Use The "He Was Only Speaking As A Man" Excuse, Why Do We Argue With Them? Article Archived: Friday, Sep 9, 2005, at 07:01 AM Stored Under Topic: APOLOGISTS Outside Link To Article: RIGHT CLICK - COPY LINK LOCATION Original Author Of Article: Anonymous | TOP | |
When apologists use this excuse they are actually agreeing with us. We also believe prophets only speak as men, and what they say is just their opinion. The difference is we believe EVERYTHING a prophet says is just his opinion, while apologists believe only the embarassing, outdated, and contradictory stuff the prophet says is his opinion. The occasional good advice that comes from the pulpit is the real word of God. (Apparently prophets can't come up with any good ideas on their own) So instead of arguing with apologists when they sputter "But he was only speaking as a man, it doesn't count beccause it was just his opinion," we need to reinforce this belief because it is where apologists and critics find common ground. Our goal should be to move them further along this line of thinking from "Sometimes a prophet speaks as a man" to "The prophet always speaks as a man."
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It would be interesting to see Bro. Brigham's reaction to the current LDS church's teachings regarding his time as prophet. I think he would have a coronary. Or worse, try to start his own break-off church of LDS.
I think it is an axiom that all men speak from their own opinions and experiences. I don't care who they are.
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You make a good point. I think the reason I've always rebutted the "speaking as a man" concept is the duplicity - on those few occasions when Joe or his successors got it right, they were definitely "prophets of God", "proving the Church is true", etc. When they get it wrong, the faithful fall back on the "speaking as a man" crutch.
It is intellectually dishonest to try to have it both ways. Oh, yeah. When has intellectual honesty ever been a priority with the morg?
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Morgbots will agree that prophets "can" speak as men and express their own opinions. When that happens the world is free to disregard their deep and profound comments.
But the problem is that the test for this manly pronouncment is found in Moroni 10:5..."And by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things."
They want everyone to believe that we can know when prophets are speaking as profits and when they're speaking as prophets. So, the bogus thing is the phony promise in Moroni...and yes, they're always speaking as men.
| Something I've Never Understood About Mormon Apologists, Please Explain Article Archived: Wednesday, Dec 14, 2005, at 11:05 AM Stored Under Topic: APOLOGISTS Outside Link To Article: RIGHT CLICK - COPY LINK LOCATION Original Author Of Article: Skeptical | TOP | |
I have always wondered why Mormon apologists even exist. Nearly universally, they all seem to follow a general pattern of stretching any evidence beyond recognition to fit the Book of Mormon (or Pearl of Great Price). But they conclude by stating that there is no need for physical proof of the divinity of the Book of Mormon because its divinity can only be confirmed spiritually.
That is where I scratch my head. If the divinity of the Book of Mormon can only be proved spiritually, then why are they wasting such time, effort and brain cells? Why even defend Mormonism from an intellectual stand point? They could and should just post a huge sign that says: "Just Pray". It seems that any approach to justify faith with material evidence is a slap in the face and a severe contradiction to the very religion they are attempting to defend.
I was never a Mormon apologist like some who post here were or are. Would you explain to me why Mormon apologist even exist if all truth is known spiritually.
| 1) Editorialize and label the criticism as "garbage," point out that it is so foul that it would be undignified to even credit such a rank assault with an answer. Enlarge on how non Christ-like the author is, and thus declare victory in the debate.
2) Explain how nothing can be absolutely "proved" by evidence anyway, and besides the evidence is based on unacceptable assumptions and is therefore tenuous, and ultimately it is all a matter of faith. And remind the critic that the lack of evidence does not prove that something DID NOT exist. Declare the criticism refuted once and for all.
3) Carry-on as if the current criticism is exactly like past criticisms and therefore can be automatically discredited because the past ones are no longer published, presumably because they were all refuted (therefore the current criticism is ultimately invalid because it too will someday be disproved).
4) When confronted with an argument, suggest that if the same category of criticism were used against the critic's religion that it would destroy all his basis for religious faith. Use this tactic to show the critic that his criticism is worthless because he is using a DOUBLE STANDARD.
Start out by insisting that incomplete information is the same as NO information, and with NO information there is no such thing as contradictory information.
Point-out that the critic is relying on "non-comprehensive" bodies of information to support his doctrinal positions and therefore does not have real proof to support his views either. Also insist that non-comprehensive information is not enough to discriminate between consistent and contradictory information.
Lastly behave as if the LDS "no evidence" situation and Christianity's "non-comprehensive evidence" are the same thing because neither provides absolute proof of anything.
Declare the critic a hypocrite and a fool for playing with such dangerous kinds of information, and you have won the argument!
5) Provide a snow job of correct sounding, but distantly related trivia that are really irrelevant to the critical issue.
Declare victory once and forevermore, based on the sheer volume of your regurgitation.
| Recovery From Mormonism Is Satan's List? Not According To Mormon Doctrine Article Archived: Friday, Feb 10, 2006, at 10:40 AM Stored Under Topic: APOLOGISTS Outside Link To Article: RIGHT CLICK - COPY LINK LOCATION Original Author Of Article: Randy J. | TOP | |
Which states that Satan is the "father of lies."
It is Mormon leaders and apologists who routinely lie about points of doctrine, history, scientific findings, etc. In fact, the tradition of "lying for the Lord" began in Joseph Smith's day. Smith himself lied on a regular basis, and his faithful followers were taught that it was no sin to lie in order to support the church or the prophet.
Church apologists routinely lie and/or misstate/misrepresent facts, or make false naked assertions in their defenses of the church. We here at RFM document those lies of church apologists on almost a daily basis.
The RFM poster "Bull's" TBM father's remarks about radiocarbon dating and evolution are a good example of a false naked assertion.
Another example: A couple of days ago, a poster here provided a link to Mopologist Jeff Lindsay's blog. I went there and read a few posts. I didn't get more than a few sentences until I saw that the TBM posters were still using the same incorrect and outdated arguments which have been refuted long ago. One example was a TBM's defense of no horse evidence in Pre-Columbian America by asserting that there is no evidence of Hun horse remains in Europe, either, so in his mind, that excused the call for horse evidence in the Americas. I responded to that argument on ARM several years ago:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.re...
I assume that the TBM who wrote the argument on Lindsay's blog borrowed it from whatever Mopologist came up with it, rather than researching the issue for himself first before ignorantly repeating the argument. This is one of the most common forms of lying in Mormon apologetics: one apologist concocts a false assertion, and it is ignorantly repeated by many other TBMs who trust in the apologists because he's a "good member of the church" and an alleged scholar/authority on a subject. I've seen TBMs quote similar inanities from apologists such as Hugh Nibley countless times, and ofttimes they are assertions which can be easily refuted with only a few minutes of research or some independent logical thought.
This kind of reliance on "trusted" Mormons is exactly how Mark Hofmann was able to fool the church's highest leaders. They believed in Hofmann's lies because initially, Hofmann was producing items which supported the historicity of the church's miraculous origins, and was thus what the leaders wanted to hear. Although Hofmann's lies were exposed (but not by any "inspired" church leaders,) TBMs are STILL prone to believing in whatever false assertions that "trusted" scholars/apologists make, without bothering to check it out first for themselves.
IMO, this culture is why Mormon apologetics can be accurately described as "the father of lies," and thus Mormon apologetics, according to LDS doctrine, are Satanic in nature.
| The Mopologists' Responses Do Not Contain Any Positive Evidence For The Book Of Mormon's Authenticity In Any Way Article Archived: Monday, Feb 20, 2006, at 08:10 AM Stored Under Topic: APOLOGISTS Outside Link To Article: RIGHT CLICK - COPY LINK LOCATION Original Author Of Article: Randy J. | TOP | |
In all of these discussions about the BOM/DNA issues, let's keep in mind that the Mopologists' responses do not contain any positive evidence for the BOM's authenticity in any way. Rather, they are merely excuses for *lack* of evidence. They are futile, juvenile attempts to explain away why we can't find a single physical artifact which would show that a population of hundreds of thousands of Hebrew-descended, horse-domesticating, chariot-riding, metal-tool-and-weaponry-using, Christian-worshipping people existed somewhere in the Americas only 1600 years ago.
Can't find any Hebrew/Semitic DNA amongst Amerinds? Why, it was all washed away by interbreeding with other groups.
So, who are the "Lamanites" today?
Why, they are the Amerinds, who while not being actual blood descendants of the BOM's "Lamanites," are in fact descendants of the Asian-origin Amerinds who were incorporated into the "Lamanite" tribes, so we just call them "Lamanites" too, as a tribal distinction, not as a blood relation affiliation.
Can't find any horse remains? Why, they were actually deer or tapir, so we shouldn't expect to find any horse remains. Alternate excuse: We can't find any remains of Hunnic horses in Europe either. Alternate excuse No. 2: All the BOM horses were killed off at the battle of Cumorah, and since we haven't yet found the location of Cumorah, we shouldn't expect to find the horse remains either.
Can't find any steel swords? Why, "steel swords" could have actually meant "wooden clubs with sharp stones attached which could cut like a sword."
Can't find any "Nephite" cities? Why, they were all built over by the predominant Asian-descended people. Alternate excuse: Archaelogists haven't overturned every square mile of Mesoamerica yet, so Nephite cities could yet be discovered. Just because they haven't been found, doesn't mean they didn't exist.
Can't find ANY EVIDENCE FOR THE BOM'S AUTHENTICITY WHATSOEVER? Why, the Lord expects us to believe in the BOM on faith, not by physical evidence. (Duhhh, so why do the Mopologists continue to push their spurious "evidences", and why does the church continue to finance FARMS?)
The bottom line here being that NOT ONE OF THE MOPOLOGIST'S ARGUMENTS COMPRISE ANY ACTUAL PHYSICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE BOM'S AUTHENTICITY. They are merely obfuscatory excuses for *lack* of evidence. They are similar in nature to O. J. Simpson's lawyers assertions that some unknown, unidentified "real killers" are out there who committed the crimes---while not providing one iota of evidence to support that naked assertion.
For those of you who debate these issues with TBMs: When they repeat these lame excuses, I suggest that you point it out to them that none of what they are saying amounts to any positive evidence for the BOM's authenticity---and that any advocate of any belief system (or other items such as UFOs, Bigfoot, etc.) can and do respond with the same type excuses that Mopologists use, and are no more credible. Tell them that when they can provide some positive evidence to support their assertions, you will begin giving them some credibility.
| How Did Mormonism's Simple So-Called Truths Get So Difficult To Explain That They Need Apologists And Scholars With Initials After Their Names To Explain It? Article Archived: Monday, Mar 6, 2006, at 07:24 AM Stored Under Topic: APOLOGISTS Outside Link To Article: RIGHT CLICK - COPY LINK LOCATION Original Author Of Article: SusieQ#1 | TOP | |
What is wrong with that picture? Either the claims of Mormonism are true or they are not.
From Gordon B Hinckley Official statements from General Conference. There are older similar quotes, however,the power of the statement cannot be rejected because he is from the current living prophet/president.
"Each of us has to face the matter-either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing." - President Gordon B. Hinckley. "Loyalty April Conference, 2003.
What is the point of writing 1000 words on how to comb a tapir's eyelash pretending it is what Joseph Smith Jr meant when he said: horses!
Why can't intelligent, educated, scholarly TBM's get down to the simple facts. Why would these TBM's think it is credible to make up such silly nonsense (create possible geography, archeology, etc.) about the BOM and BOA for instance?
Mormonism is supposed to be easily understand, even by a child.
If it takes a PHD to explain it, or defend it, there is something amiss!
Please...more common sense people! Of course, if it was so common more people would have it!
We have easy access to information that easily debunks Mormonism. It is so simple, even a child could do it! :-)
Perhaps some TBM's just won't give up on the idea that they could be incorrect, and don't know they can change their mind and save face.
Or maybe it is more about money, salaries, income, social standing, employment, careers, loosing family, loved ones who don't understand the 11th Article of Faith or the 1st Amendment to the Constitution.
Maybe it is too expensive to admit that Mormonism is a hoax, sham, fraud from the get go.
I am sure most of us paid a big price at the hands of TBM's and only TBM's. Hopefully it was worth it. It was for me!
Simple claims are easily debunked with simple information!
It is up to us to teach the TBM's how to treat us and keep teaching them!
| I noticed that Mormon apologists make sure to distance themselves from the church by clearly stating that their screeds are not to be taken as the MORG's official positions. So let me see if I get this right, the COB takes a bunch of tithing money and pays people to deliberately produce unofficial church positions that "may" be helpful and informative. If I'm looking for something definitive, how informative and helpful are they really if the MORG won't claim or bless their work as official.
It looks to me like FARMS should really be more like the 4-H club or some other type of narrow interest group that has to hold fundraisers to keep themselves going. How about a Pancake Dinner or Car-Wash or Bake Sale or better yet, how about rounding up all the priesthood holders in the FARM building and heading over to the local sperm bank to see what their DNA is worth?
I grew up believing that I was to follow the living prophets and prophets are the only ones holding the authority to interpret scripture, proclaim doctrine and interpret what past prophets meant and/or what current prophets mean.
What would happen if we eliminated the layer of apologetics and solely focused on the words of the dead and/or living prophets?
- You get unsolvable conundrum of "speaking as a prophet" v. "speaking as a man"
- You get extraordinary contradictions amongst the Q15 over time. Who needs the LGT when you got JofD (which really aren't contradictions at all if deeply understood and understood in the proper context)
- You get a loose cannon like McConkie who makes an utter ass of himself by making ridiculous claims and predictions while writing as half man-half prophet and it's your job to divine which one is speaking. So a talk entitled "The Seven Deadly Heresies" is really nothing but a take it-or-leave it tirade.
- You get "the couplet" doctrine and the doctrine of "we don't teach that anymore". Once again you must understand at a more mature and sophisticated level of meaning and nuance, and understand it in the correct context and once done, "JS loves Fanny" is No Problemo!
- You get one confusing, impossible to follow doctrinal cluster that makes your head spin. (Kind of like the expression on Austin Power's face when he is introduced to the Italian Bird named Alotta Vagina)
I think the church should save some money by outsourcing its apologetics product line to the lowest bidder. All you need is someone who can type the following in response to just about any criticism levied against the church:
- You've mischaracterized my position, but that doesn't matter because I was right and you were wrong before you ever mischaracterized my position
- You simply don't get it and you never will get it because you lack the ability to penetrate the deeper meaning of Godly things and you fail to appreciate the proper context in which seemingly disturbing things were said or done.
- Don't waste your time because here at FARMS we win them all, and that's before the game is ever played. We Guarantee It!
| I admit it. I've been lurking on FAIR recently, even though I promised myself I wouldn't go back there (at least I haven't posted). And no, this thread is not about the FAIR boards.
Many of you know I used to be an amateur apologist (at one time #3 on the list of all-time posters on that other board). I'm still coming to grips with who and what I was back then. A lot of people accuse apologists of dishonesty and sort a mercenary approach to the church, as they have too much invested to look at things honestly.
This assertion is true to some extent, but I don't believe that for most of them, it's a conscious deception.
Mormon apologists tend to spout some serious absurdities (all with a straight face) and then attack when you point out the absurdity of their statements. The other day, someone was ridiculed for suggesting that the repeated mention of preparing horses and chariots for the king's travel meant that actual horses and chariots were used. Nope, they used an indeterminate animal to pull sledges, obviously.
But they really have to do this, don't they? The text of the Book of Mormon is absurd in itself, full of anachronisms and plagiarisms--obvious ones. Yet Mormons approach the text with one conclusion: it's true. They have had the spiritual witness or whatever that convinces them it's true. And might I add that most people who get such a witness haven't read the text all that carefully. The textual issues come later when they actually read carefully and begin to see what is actually there. I'm reminded of William Barrett's famous statement that he was glad he received a testimony of the Book of Mormon before he was made aware of the "so-called facts."
So, where does one go when faced with a problematic text that is a priori "true"? That's where apologetics comes in. Some people try to find textual or archeological "evidence" for the book, though it's not really evidence in the way most people understand the word. They look for parallels and hints among all the red flags, such as asserting that the description of father-and-son regional kingships places the Book of Mormon in a Mesoamerican setting. Of course, this is the equivalent of saying that the wizard's use of a hot-air balloon places the Wizard of Oz in an early 20th-century context and thus validates it as a historical text.
Others, probably realizing the futility of this approach, go for the "explain it away" method. In this approach, the text isn't really as representative as it seems and instead indicates problems with translation and vocabulary. Thus, we wave away horses by saying they're not really horses; steel isn't steel; silk isn't silk; and Galilee beyond the Red Sea isn't really Galilee.
The extreme form of this kind of apologist is the "postmodernist," who argues for a non-literal reading of the text, as a text is really a series of signs chosen from other signs. Meaning is invested in the reading process, so we don't need to worry about whether there actually were horses or chariots or even Nephites. "Truth," such as it is, is not located in a text, literal or otherwise, and anyone who believes that the Book of Mormon actually represents any form of reality is some kind of hyperliteral "fundamentalist." I used that very argument several times myself.
Of course, a self-proclaimed postmodern Mormon once told me that her approach comes from what I described above: she knows through spiritual experience that the book is true, and the postmodern approach is the only one that is compatible with that spiritual witness.
That's what I think is the heart of apologetics. They start with that premise (it's true) and then find an approach, any approach, that works, no matter how strained. They don't think they are being dishonest at all; they are just making the text work for them. The alternative isn't very pretty in their view.
How does one get through to an apologist, then? For me, the key was understanding that I was trying to force the facts to fit a predetermined reality, and yet the facts simply wouldn't go there. I was forced to choose between subjective "spiritual experience" and verifiable fact. I chose the latter. And others are doing it, too. I read on Saturday of someone I had known on FAIR as an apologist (though he took a lot of grief for calling for financial transparency in the church) has now declared his understanding that the church really isn't based on truth, though he says he believes in it on his own terms. I've met people from a.r.m. and FAIR who have been through the same process.
I don't fault people for being true to their spiritual feelings. That's what we were taught to do. But I understand the costs of doing so.
http://onlyaball.blogspot.com
| Here's an excerpt from a description of a new biography about Joseph Smith by Dan Vogel. The mental compartmentalization required to think and write such stuff is astounding!
Quote:
"Over time, Joseph became aware that people trusted him and that he could be an influence for good or ill, that even through nefarious means, God worked through him when his heart was right. He realized this when he led groups in search of Spanish treasure in New York and Pennsylvania. Although no treasure was found, the men sincerely believed that Smith had a spiritual gift and could see where casks of gold were hidden in the earth. This training ground in spiritual leadership was invaluable because the prophet learned how to create an environment for belief - one in which people could exercise faith and be converted to Christ through the sensible influence of the Spirit, all prior to the overarching work of restoring primitive Christianity."
The entire description is found at this link:
http://www.signaturebooks.com/JosephS...
Some of the description I agree with: specifically, "nefarious means" and "training ground." Joseph's conning of people in order to get their money through "nefarious means" was dishonest, deceptive and immoral. There is no honest way to twist it into a good thing, and especially as something that "God" gave his nod to. Webster defines nefarious as "flagrantly wicked or impious." I'll buy that. And the training ground Vogel (or whomever wrote the book description) speaks of was essentially a training ground for Joseph to learn the art of conning, which was a stepping stone for the young conman to enter the lucrative business of conning people out of their money in exchange for a ticket to heaven. Maybe Joseph at times actually believed he was a prophet, and maybe David Koresh did too. In my opinion, the answer to both is yes, they did. But self deception, especially when coupled with nefarious means and abuse of power, does not in any way shape or form make what Joseph Smith did right.
| Latest Round From Apologists On Human Genetics -Vs- Lamanites Article Archived: Friday, Aug 25, 2006, at 07:03 AM Stored Under Topic: APOLOGISTS Outside Link To Article: RIGHT CLICK - COPY LINK LOCATION Original Author Of Article: alex71va | TOP | |
I've discovered that the following articles are now being used by apologists on the FAIR boards to defend their faith. In fact one poster wrote: ".... I think Stewart [an apologist who addressed this issue at a FAIR conference] nailed the coffin shut is because the countermos are already about five articles behind in the responses to their pseudo-DNA science." So I decided to go read these articles fully.
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Beha...
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/...9
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/qu...
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/con...
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Hamm...
I find this assertion made on FAIR about these articles absolutely ridiculous because the theses of these articles clearly don't support the Book of Mormon story as I've understood it. Here's my understanding of what's been taught and if I've erred then please correct me.
Jared and his brother are saved from the confounding of languages near Babel shortly after the great worldwide flood and then led by God to a promised land that's given to them if they'll be good. Eventually they become very bad and almost extinct. The remnants repent and eventually multiply/replenish into millions. Eventually they become bad too and a prophet named Ether warns they'll become extinct if they don't repent. They don't repent and they have a great war that eventually ends in just their leaders Coriantumr and Shiz remaining and Coriantumr wins after he chops off Shiz's head. As Ether prophesied the now empty of people land would be given to another people for their inheritance. This occurs around 2600 years before the present day when 2 groups of Hebrews (Lehi, Mulek) come to the Americas and the promise is made to Lehi that this land will be preserved for his seed if they're righteous. Lehi's son Nephi sees a vision of his future people and their wars/dissentions and good/bad. In this vision heforetells on how the knowledge of this land is kept hidden from all other nations until the time of Christopher Columbus (i.e. 1492). The final Book of Mormon prophet Moroni and others eventually visit Joseph Smith in the 1820s onward and help give him plenty of historical context information.
If I've erred then I'll correct myself. I'm just always going to look at this issue in its full context PERIOD and let the chips fall wherever they may. I honestly don't see that attitude from the apologists. They pick/choose what they'll look at, particularly when it comes to the writings of their own prophets.
| The LDS Church Tracks 6,500 Anti-LDS Websites Article Archived: Saturday, Dec 23, 2006, at 07:58 AM Stored Under Topic: APOLOGISTS Outside Link To Article: RIGHT CLICK - COPY LINK LOCATION Original Author Of Article: Infymus | TOP | |
Recently BYU put up an article entitled "Create a Business Plan to Help LDS Church". It was at this location http://ceo.byu.edu/create-a-business-.... After the Ex-Mormon community found it and exposed it, it was immediately replaced with "Repentance" talks given by Neal A. Maxwell.
Some interesting points in this document:
- The LDS Church tracks about 6,500 anti-LDS Web sites
- Potential converts are abandoning the missionaries once they consult the Internet for more information.
- We cannot drive the enemies of the Church off the Internet, but we can displace their prominent positions.
- millions of people are not Christians, but need Christ introduced to them.
- The project is to use the Internet to 1) drive down the enemies of the Church off prominent search pages, and 2) use the Internet as a missionary tool.
- The business plan will be placed in front of major potential donors.
I find it quite interesting that the LDS Church tracks 6,500 Anti-LDS web sites. Where do they find the time? Do they have hundreds of senior missionaries clicking away at websites and printing off thousands of reams of paper?
This whole document stinks of Allen Wyatt. And wherever you find Allen Wyatt, you find Daniel C. Peterson.
Basically what Allen Wyatt is doing is registering thousands of website URLS and re-directing them to his new More Good Foundation.
Here is the document posted on the BYU website before it was quickly taken down:
Create a Business Plan to Help LDS Church
Our foundation needs help to create a business plan or fundraising. The project is to use the Internet to 1) drive down the enemies of the Church off prominent search pages, and 2) use the Internet as a missionary tool. The business plan will be placed in front of major potential donors. Here is an overview of the project and request. Thanks for your help.
"...needs help...fundraising...Thanks for your help." This sounds like a scam to blike naive TBMs???
Larry Barkdull, president
Latter-day Foundation for the Arts, Education and Humanity
(801)427-2193
lwb224 AT msn.com Who and what is Larry B. other than Pres of this foundation??
The Latter-day Foundation for the Arts, Education and Humanity was formed in 1990 to help promote LDS arts and artists. Later, its purpose was expanded to assist with educational and humanitarian efforts. Recently, the foundation has become actively involved with Internet missionary initiatives to (1) drive down Church enemies from prominent search engine positions and (2) teach the gospel of Jesus Christ via the Internet. Our initiative is called Flooding the Internet with Truth.
How successful was/is this group in their initial endeavor re "arts and artists"?
Introduction
A recent conservative advice columnist on MSN.com recommended premarital sex to a young virgin: If you are sure you are in a long-term relationship, why not? Must have been a no-news-day?
A missionary in England reported his golden contact excitedly consulting the Internet about Mormons after the first discussion. The investigator found a mountain of anti-Mormon material and immediately cancelled all future appointments with the missionaries. Fool's gold?
Need
At present, the Internet has few conservative, moral voices that are willing to combat immorality and anti-Mormon sentiments. The LDS Church tracks about 6,500 anti-LDS Web sites in the English language, whose content dominates search results. Thousands more dominate search engine positions in other languages. Potential converts are abandoning the missionaries once they consult the Internet for more information. (Emphasis added.) Only vast quantities of positive material, correctly optimized, can resolve this problem. We cannot drive the enemies of the Church off the Internet, but we can displace their prominent positions. Moreover, millions of people are not Christians, but need Christ introduced to them. Much of the present information about Christ on the Internet is either embarrassing or inaccurate. Finally, as the world grows increasingly more dangerous, middle- and upper-class people are retreating to gated communities, places that are difficult for missionaries to enter. How can we reach these people? Through their computers.
And make LDSism look more absurd than ever! Might the world be getting smarter? A natural barrier to misinformation, superstition and quackery!
We need a network of conservative information that:
Points readers to moral, Christian principles There are thousands doing that at the moment!
Offers clear-cut information on LDS members and their doctrines Is Christianism or Mormonism the focus?
Scientifically presents material in a way that displaces immoral and anti-LDS material on search engines.
"Scientifically...in a way..." Really? Truth distortion, brain washing, spinning, subliminal flashes??
Solution
During the last three years, we have worked with Church departments and potential content providers to identify the problem and construct a solution strategy. We work closely with the More Good Foundation to gather information about in-danger keyword searches, which tells us where content needs to be placed, and how it should be optimized and published. We have created two initial Web sites, and we are in the process of creating a network of gospel-oriented sites.
What "Church depts & ...content providers"? "...gospel-oriented sites? More sites to frequent for us, eh?
Projected results
We took random samples of mainstay Christian and LDS terms and researched their monthly searches. The resulting audience was enormousover 4 million. We can apply the same tools and science that professional e-commerce sites incorporate to make money and use them to defend the Church and teach the gospel. We believe we can reach millions of people. Our call to action is (1) ask for a free copy of the Book of Mormon, (2) order free Church materials (DVDs, pamphlets, etc.), and (3) request the missionaries. Busy work? How productive? How profitable for the "Foundation"?
We interviewed former mission presidents about convert-to-missionary contact ratios. The results were these: basically 30,000 companionships will each contact about 100 people per month or 3 million people. Of that number, 25,000 people are baptized each monthless than 1% of the number contacted. Interesting stats. If true they certainly beg many questions and much analysis! Our goal is to publish vast amounts of positive content and place it strategically where millions of monthly searchescontactscan occur. An interesting mathematical exercise (using industry standards for Internet readership captures as compared to convert-to-missionary contact ratios) suggests that the Internet can greatly increase positive awareness of the Church and become an incredible missionary tool. And too, it can and will be more negative than positive. Net folks are generally better educated--ask questions, want 'answers' not "testimonies"
Sounds like an "Edsel" to me. To be taken seriously? Hardly!
Allen and Daniel - do whatever you think it will take - to defend your cult. People are easily confused - but not stupid. And in time, your little games will be discovered, exposed and you will hurt your cause far more than you will help it. And the reason is simple: What you are doing is exactly what the LDS Church does. Deceive. Omit. Twist. Hide. Whitewash. Bury. In the words of Robert Millet from BYU, "We aren't obligated to answer everybody's question".
In the end people will see the Mormon Church for what it really is: A Cult of Christianity created by a convicted criminal. And we will be there to answer the questions, to show them the real truth behind Mormonism - the truth that has not been buried or whitewashed or miss-quoted or conveniently omitted.
Allen Wyatt and Daniel C. Peterson's goal is to make sure people don't see the facts. Don't see there are multiple first vision accounts. Don't see the reality behind the Book of Abraham and the lost papyrus. Don't see that Joseph Smith married and had sex with teenagers. Don't show the extremely racist and anti-Semitic views of Brigham Young. In this regard I could go on for a very long time on the serious problems that plague the Mormon Church. These problems are exactly what Allen and Daniel do not want people to see because they know the truth hurts and hits the Mormon Church right where it hurts the most - in their pocketbooks.
Also realize this: Daniel C. Peterson is PAID to defend Mormonsim. He has a reason to claim the Cult is "True" : MONEY. Money drives this Corporation and Money drives Daniel C. Peterson.
Like I said before Allen and Daniel. Wherever you go on the Internet, I will be one step behind you watching, archiving and exposing. Keep up this kind of work you are doing - it helps our cause - not yours.
| "Spiritual Eye" Is How The Witnesses Recorded Their Experience. Joseph Smith Had Contrived Some Interesting Objects Though. Account By BH Roberts Is Here Article Archived: Monday, Jan 22, 2007, at 06:43 AM Stored Under Topic: | |
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