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DALLIN H. OAKS - SECTION 1
Total Articles:
19
Mormon Apostle Dallin H. Oaks.
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From Dallin H. Oaks this last conference:
We must also act to protect those we love. Parents install alarms to warn if their household is threatened by smoke or carbon monoxide. We should also install protections against spiritual threats. Protections like filters on internet connections and locating access so others can see what is being viewed. And we should build the spiritual strength of our families by loving relationships family prayer, and scripture study. Finally, do not patronize pornography. Do not use your purchasing power to support moral degradation. And young woman, please understand that if you dress immodestly you are magnifying this problem by becoming pornography to some of the men who see you. Please heed these warnings. Let us all improve our personal behavior and redouble our efforts to protect our loved ones and our environment from the onslaught of pornography that threatens our spirituality, our marriages, and our children.
Meanwhile, you can still purchase pornography at any Marriott Hotel, owned by an LDS General Authority by the same name.
Funny how we never hear the brethren say, "And you young men, be sure never to play "shirts-n-skins" on the asphalt, as the sight of your bare chests may invoke impure thoughts in the minds of our sisters." Or maybe they should reprimand young men who "adjust" themselves in the church hall? Or send home deacons if we can see their nipples through the white shirts?
| | The Weirdest Talk In Modern GC History: Dallin Oaks' "Language Of Prayer" Tuesday, May 31, 2005, at 09:15 AM Original Author(s): Anonymous Topic: DALLIN H. OAKS - SECTION 1 -Guid- | ↑ | I'm a big fan of everyone's right to say stupid things. In fact, I myself have said a lot of stupid things on here. The worst was when I incorrectly announced that my prophecy that the "principal ancestors" phrase would be eliminated from future editions of the BOM had been fulfilled in the new Doubleday version, when it hadn't. It was still there, but I'd missed it reading over the intro in the bookstore. It can be mortifying to have to eat your shorts any time, but since we all make mistakes, and hopefully, all wish to learn, I think it's just part of life.
So, I don't hold think there is anything particularly unusual, or even wrong, about anyone, including Dallin Oaks, saying silly things once in awhile. (After all, the only reason why someone might say far fewer silly things than average would be if they were a "special witness" of, with special access to, the faultless, omniscient mind of a deity, like the ascended Jesus of Nazareth.) Often times, silly comments lead to serious discussion where new insights are made. And of course, silly comments sometimes turn out not to be so silly upon inspection.
But that brings us to what may be the weirdest talk in modern General Conference history, Dallin Oaks' "Language of Prayer" talk. There are so many internal contradictions and problems with this talk, that a full critique of it would be a couple of times the length of the original talk. But since a few people asked me last week for a few comments after this talk came up on a thread that I started, here are a few. (The full text of this talk can be read at www.lds.org, May 1993 Ensign).
It is easy to imagine that addressing the Creator of the universe, the embodiment of all righteousness and perfection, should impel us to use language different from that which we use to talk to goldfish or prison inmates. It is all the more significant, then, what a hash Elder Oaks makes of his defense of it.
For example, he writes:
>> The special language of prayer follows different forms in different languages, but the principle is always the same. We should address prayers to our Heavenly Father in words which speakers of that language associate with love and respect and reverence and closeness. The application of this principle will, of course, vary according to the nature of a particular language, including the forms that were used when the scriptures were translated into that language. Some languages have intimate or familiar pronouns and verbs used only in addressing family and very close friends. Other languages have honorific forms of address that signify great respect, such as words used only when speaking to a king or other person of high rank. Both of these kinds of special words are appropriately used in offering prayers in other languages because they communicate the desired feelings of love, respect, reverence, or closeness.
Question: How does it make sense to say that the “special language of prayer follows different forms in different languages, but the principle is always the same”? What principle? Oaks says that in prayer, “some languages have intimate or familiar pronouns…other languages have ‘honorific forms’” but that "BOTH...ARE APPROPRIATELY USED". Huh? Familiar forms of address, versus formal forms, are opposites. What “principle” could erase the very distinction on which his entire talk depends for its point? This is totally bizarre. If it is true that different languages use either the formal or informal in addressing God, and then he says that that's appropriate, on what grounds is he arguing that in English, we shouldn't use "you"? WHAT PRINCIPLE?
Oaks writes that "thou" and "thee", etc., constitute "dignified" language. But then he writes this:
>>The special language of prayer that Latter-day Saints use in English has sometimes been explained by reference to the history of the English language. It has been suggested that thee, thou, thy, and thine are simply holdovers from forms of address once used to signify respect for persons of higher rank. But more careful scholarship shows that the words we now use in the language of prayer were once commonly used by persons of rank IN ADDRESSING PERSONS OF INFERIOR POSITION...These same English words were also used in communications between persons in an intimate relationship." (That is, they constituted the informal form).
So, according to Elder Oaks, we should use "thou" because it is more "dignified", AND, according to Elder Oaks, "thou" is NOT more dignified, because (as most people interested in English know), it actually IS the now obsolete informal, intimate form of address - exactly the one people did use to address golfish and criminals with, 500 years ago. How does this make sense? Oaks says in effect, "'thou' is formal" AND "'thou' is informal".
How does Oaks get around this obstacle to his argument? Very easily. He simply ends up declaring, as though hopefully to make the conundrums he gets himself into in this talk magically, instantly vanish:
>>But the history of English usage is not the point.
Previously in this talk, Oaks notes that the meanings of words change over time, as though to insinuate that "thou" had. But it isn't that "thou" has "changed meanings"; it is that it has been totally obsolete - hasn't been used - in "standard English" (hereafter "SE") for going on half a millenium. Even by the time of Shakespeare and the KJV it was falling out of use in SE, and I know for a fact that some linguists believe that the only reason Shakespeare used it so often in his plays (whereas contemporaries like Ben Jonson used it rarely) was that he (supposedly) hailed from Warwickshire, where it was still a part of the dialect.
(And by the way, my wife is from Lancashire; and if you went there right now and talked to people over fifty [as I have a few times] who still speak in dialectic, you would hear them quite frequently use the INFORMAL "thou" and "thee" to their grandchildren, farm animals like goats and pigs, and grocery boys. It never has been - and is still not, where it is used - the "reverent", "dignified", or "formal" form, not in regional dialects, nor in SE).
Anyway, it is easy to wonder if for Oaks, "the history of English usage" has ceased to be the point only because "the history of English usage" completely destroys the weird arguments he keeps trying to make. How can "usage" and its "history" NOT be the point, when his whole talk is about 500 year old words that he wants us to keep using, on grounds that they are "dignified", even though, as he also admits, they aren't? How can ANY discussion of a word's meaning, nuances, etc., completely divorce itself from the history of that word? Oaks doesn't really answer this question. But why should he have to? He's an apostle, and even though his talk contains numerous internal inconsistencies, that he is an apostle should be all that is required for us to not notice, I supppose.
So far, Oaks has argued that "thou" should be used because it is "dignified", even though as he explains, it wasn't ever actually "dignified" at all; insinuated then that it might be appropriate just because the meaning has changed, even though it hasn't where still used in regional dialect, and in fact has dropped entirely from SE.
And in seeming (subconscious?) recognition of his increasingly embarrassing position, he finally concedes that, okay, "thou" might be obsolete - but that THAT is precisely why we SHOULD use it for "the language of prayer"! (He says, "In our day the English words thee, thou, thy, and thine are suitable for the language of prayer, not because of how they were used anciently but because they are currently obsolete in common English discourse".)
Confession: I don't understand. Why does "obsolete" mean "more sacred"? Would Dallin Oaks insist that we all start listening to the MoTab on wax cylinders or vinyl LP's, or wear burlap robes to church instead of navy business suits with red silk ties?
Oaks' position seems to come down to this: SE currently lacks a formal "you", since "you" now is used in both formal and informal settings. But, deity must be addressed, in English, using formal speech (though he doesn't explain why all other languages should use the informal, as the church insists they do). So, the obsolete "thou" can be appropriated to this end, despite the fact it was always - and is still, where used - the informal form.
This might be okay, except that THE CHURCH ITSELF translates ALL references to Deity, in its scriptures, its manuals, its conference talks (even Oaks'!), everything, into the INFORMAL form of address of every language of which I am aware. German, French, Italian, Spanish, Portugese, Dutch, every other language with two forms of address, I believe - the church itself always uses the INFORMAL! On what grounds, in the end, does Oaks argue that "right" requires English speakers to try essentially to create out of nothing, like Kwanzaa, and use, a formal form of address, while "right" ALSO requires virtually all non-English Mormons to do EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE? Again, “what principle”? Why?
I think, in the end, the answer is - "because". That's always the ultimate answer in authoritarian organizations, whether we all realize it or not. "Because" - because Spencer Kimball said so, because Joseph said so, because we always have...but as each "because" (just as we have seen in Oaks' own talk) evaporates under scrutiny, another "because" replaces it. And in the end, there is nothing else, except "because". Because we said so. And when the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done. And that should settle the matter for all faithful Latter-day Saints. The end.
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MORE COMMENTS.
Any discussion of Dallin Oaks’ version of the “language of prayer” might take into consideration the language of the KJV, since Mormon prayer language seems to be an effort to continue its form of speech. As well, while Oaks' talk isn't specifically about the KJV, Mormon defenses of its continued use often rely on the same kinds of arguments used by Oaks for defending obsolete language in prayer. And I feel pretty sure that Oaks' would defend the continued use of the KJV as staunchly (and as unconvincingly) as he does "the language of prayer". Just a few comments then for what they're worth.
The first English translation of the Bible was done by John Wycliffe in the late 1300's (don't remember the exact year). It was revolutionary because it was a translation of the scriptures into the language of the common man; and as such, was a total karate kick in the face of the church. The church opposed Latin to English translations, at bottom, because it weakened their power - up until that time, the priests (obviously this is pre-church/state separation) had been the referees in the game of life, but the players themselves had little or no access to the "definitive" rule book, The Bible. All priestly opinions had to be accepted just on faith as being accurate expressions of what The Bible itself said. Human nature being what it is, it is difficult to imagine even the most saintly pope or priest (or prophet) never wielding such power to satisfy his own interests.
Wycliffe, with his English translation, helped to start changing this situation. Though with great faith in God, he aligned himself with reason, autonomy, and enlightenment, and against the dark forces of dogma and questionable, irresponsible religious authority claims. He once said that even if a hundred popes were to announce something, their opinions on faith shouldn't be accepted unless they squared with holy writ. It is no wonder the church was so angry at him. Suddenly, they were being held accountable. Their power derived from their ability to be the final interpreters of a scripture withheld from the very people they sought power over (does that sound familiar?); even at the same time they claimed that scriptures were the only word of God, they reserved ALL RIGHT to INTERPRET that word of God; which in effect substituted them for that word of God itself, without acknowledging this was what was happening (and does THAT sound familiar?). Was it Brennan or Black who said the Constitution was "whatever wesay it means"?
Wycliffe's successor translator, William Tyndale, similarly wished for holy writ to be accessible to the common man. He once said to a priest, “ere many years, I will cause a boy that driveth a plough to know more of the scriptures than thou dost”. After he published his translation, one which broadly would come to serve as the template for future translations, including the KJV, he was pursued by the Catholic church, caught, and then burned at the stake. His crime? Facilitating access to religious information, a “crime” that the Mormon church would probably make, in essence, against the guy who smuggled Joseph’s “Kirtland Papers” (the Egyptian Grammar book) out of the archives, against the Tanners for publishing it, against Grant Palmer or Michael Quinn or anyone else who would dare reveal religious information and facilitate the holding accountable of men who make authority claims identical to (and identically as specious as) the Catholic popes and priests the church once derided in its endowment ceremony.“The truth”, in the end, does not matter - only “the church”. But since the church’s very claims to authority are based on claims about “the truth”, how can it fight against access to it, without legitimately arousing the gravest suspicion? Without suggesting it could not be what it claims to be?
In the story of the English bible, the Catholics are the bad guys. And Dallin Oaks, whether he knows it or not, seems to be on the side of the bad guys; he seems very much to agree with uber-Catholic Sir Thomas More, who once complained bitterly about the holy word of God being translated into the language of ploughboys - rather than left in the more exalted, reverential language of….Latin. (How stupid). (Just replace “Latin” with “KJV English”, which for many people, four hundred years later, seems about as incomprehensible as a Robert Burns poem written in Scottish dialect, and you have Oaks' position). Oaks would have been criticizing Tyndale, Wycliffe, and the KJV translators if he’d lived several centuries ago. He can’t get around that, without disavowing his main position, which he hasn’t done, that I know of.
The protestant King James repudiated More’s/Oaks’ position by authorizing a new translation, one that would combine the best features of all then extant versions, to be written in the tongue of the common man - not some fake language which we’re supposed to pretend is “exalted”. The whole point of the King James Version of the Bible was to put it into common tongue - NOT keep it “exalted” or “obscure” or “archaic (although a few of Tyndale’s by then famous phrases, 80 years old by that time and already sounding a bit dated, were kept). The whole point was to make it comprehensible, so as to neutralize the claims of priests - and Mormon apostles - who in effect argue that the scriptures mean whatever they say they mean.
Because the KJV translators - whose project, oddly enough, Oaks reveres and loathes at the same time without realizing it - wanted the word of God totally comprehensible to everyone, I believe very strongly they would say he was every bit the religious bigot, upholder of superstition, and self-styled divine "authority" who actually INHIBITS the spread of the divine word by warring against its intelligibility, as were the Catholic friars who, well, "fried" John Wycliffe.
What’s even worse is that neither the Old Testament nor the New was originally written in anything other than plain language. The New Testament, for example, as is well known, wasn’t written in “formal, dignified Greek” at all, but in koine Greek, the Greek used by fishermen, prostitutes, and...Jewish tentmakers like Paul - the Greek, by the way, used by people whose native tongue wasn’t Greek at all, but Aramaic.
So, if Matthew and Paul and Luke et al didn’t use some archaic, pseudo-dignified form of speech in writing about the most sacred matters imaginable - Jesus’ suffering, crucifixion, and resurrection - and don’t even quote Jesus using anything other than common speech in addressing God, on what grounds can Dallin Oaks or anyone NOW claim that the scriptures (and our prayers) are so sacred as to merit warping in this way? It makes no sense. To endorse this warping is to insult the very KJV translators who the church claims were inspired to write what they did. They wrote in common speech. Any translation which doesn’t represent that fact is a slap at them, and reveals yet another example of a Mormon claim which undermines itself when seen in the light of other Mormon claims.
I mentioned Jesus using common language to address God. I’d like to ask Dallin Oaks who “the great exemplar” is, if not Jesus? Of course, he would say Jesus. So, if, as Oaks claims, we need some formal language with which to address God, why then does Jesus, the great exemplar, address God using the very intimate term “Abba”? (And according to some authorities, he would have done so all the time, not just where it is specified in NT text).
Abba does not, as is commonly suggested, translate exactly into “Daddy”, but it definitely is a familiar, intimate term, maybe something like "papa" - NOT “Your Royal Highness” or whatever it is that Oaks seems to think Jesus would want us to use.
Oaks might reply that he was entitled to use this term, since God was his literal father. I might then ask why Paul tells his congregations that the Spirit of God says that believers in Christ should worship God as “Abba”? (See, e.g., Gal. 4:6, Rom. 8:15). Aren’t the standard works THE standard for official church doctrine? That’s what Oaks would say - and in saying so, he would have just exploded his own weird thesis, for in it, prayer to and praise of God is explicitly exemplified, and recommended to be, in FAMILIAR language.
Further, I’d like to know (if we are to maintain the kind of “appropriate distance” to deity recommended by Oaks and before him, by McConkie), why Gordon B. Hinckley announced in public that “Jesus is my friend”?
If Oaks really wants to read the Bible in something like a faithful translation, he could try the RSV (forget what J. Reuben Clark said), or the NRSV, even the ESV which maintains the “virgin”/parthenos/alma/beutlah/Isaiah/Matthew deal for the born agains. Heck, even the NIV would be better than the KJV for accuracy. Maybe even better in my mind is Richmond Lattimore’s translation of the New Testament. THAT is near to what it would have sounded like to the contemporaries of its writers.
Let me try something out here, to conclude.
The church continues to insist on using “thees” and “thous” in prayer, because to replace them would raise the question of why the church is still then sticking with an archaic Bible translation which has been greatly superceded in accuracy and intelligibility by a number of others. But questions like this are bad.
They’re bad, because we might start to wonder, after digging more deeply into the various translations, if the KJV can’t be replaced because to do so might undermine the basis for many of Joseph’s teachings and doctrines, which were “riffs” or midrashic embellishments on particular KJV verses - which in some cases were mistranslations (unbeknownst to Joseph), or which were misunderstood by him due to ambiguity in the translation. But that can’t happen without calling into question the reliability of the charismatic Joseph, and thus the authority of his church.
Therefore, use of the KJV, and the use of KJV language for Mormon prayers, must be defended in whatever way possible - even in ways which make no sense, which are contradicted not only by the facts of history but by the scriptures themselves (as suggested above), and even by statements within the very talks of people trying to defend them - like Dallin Oaks' "The Language of Prayer".
Just as we might expect if the church were not run, in the end, by anything approximating Omniscience no matter how diluted by mortal minds, but by mortals whose access to omniscience is every bit as non-existent as our own, the church once again seems to find itself painted into a corner, any escape attempt from which - while maintaining church claims - must of necessity provoke the greatest violence on the rudimentary rules of logic, and the most basic respect for fact, truth, and reality.
I'll give Oaks' credit for this, though his talk is a carcrash - I don't imagine anyone being able to do better defending the indefensible than he does. What else could we really expect? The thing, in the end, just isn't defensible without ending up sounding like you're creating your own version of the Nicene Creed. If the thing itself is nonsense, it is no wonder defenses of it are as well. How could they not be?
| I happened past the BYU channel the other day just in time to see Dalin Oaks talking about a paper he had coauthored with another lawyer proving that it was legal for Joseph as mayor of Nauvoo to destroy the printing press. Of course he did not go into detail about why Joseph felt it was necessary to destroy the printing press or whether the information the press was distributing was in anyway false or misleading.
I wonder if this is the exception to the rule of freedom of the press that Oaks was referring to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_...
Quote:
One form of speech that was widely restricted in England was the law of seditious libel that made criticizing of the government a crime. The King was above public criticism and that statements critical of the government were forbidden, according to the English Court of the Star Chamber. Truth was not a defense to seditious libel because the goal was to prevent and punish all condemnation of the government.
Joseph after all was pronounced the King of Israel by the saints. And this rule still applies to the freedom of speech in the church as evidenced by Simon's ordeal.
More interesting stuff from that page:
Quote:
The notion of "freedom of the press" that later was enshrined in the United States Constitution is generally traced to the seditious libel prosecution of John Peter Zenger by the colonial governor of New York in 1735. Zenger was acquitted after his lawyer, Andrew Hamilton, argued to the jury (contrary to established English law) that there was no libel in publishing the truth. Yet even after this celebrated case, colonial governors and assemblies asserted the power to prosecute and even imprison printers for publishing unapproved views.
During the American Revolution, a free press was identified by Revolutionary leaders as one of the elements of liberty that they sought to preserve. The Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776) proclaimed that "the freedom of the press is one of the greatest bulwarks of liberty and can never be restrained but by despotic governments." Similarly, the Constitution of Massachusetts (1780) declared, "The liberty of the press is essential to the security of freedom in a state: it ought not, therefore, to be restrained in this commonwealth." Following these examples, the First Amendment to the United States Constitution restricted Congress from abridging the freedom of the press and the closely associated freedom of speech.
So it would seem that even if other governors of the day were enforcing sedition laws Joseph was not acting in accordance with the views of the men whom the Church teaches were inspired by God to lay the foundations of this country and was not acting in a manner which upholded and sustained the freedom of expression in his community. But then the church has never really believed in the idea of freedom of expression among its members.
| For those who say polygamy is "behind us" or "not doctrinal" or a "blip of history" let me quote Dallin Oaks at a BYU devotional, Jan 29, 2002:
"When I was 66, my wife June died of cancer. Two years later--a year and a half ago--I married Kristen McMain, the eternal companion who now stands at my side."
| | The Spinning Seer - Or Dallin H. Oaks V's Mohandas K. Gandhi Thursday, May 4, 2006, at 08:06 AM Original Author(s): Grey Matter Topic: DALLIN H. OAKS - SECTION 1 -Guid- | ↑ | 20 years ago, I read a fascinating book, The Life of Mahatma Gandhi, by Louis Fischer.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0006...
At the time, I really treasured the book, and I loved the man, Gandhi. I felt blessed for having read about him.
I figured that next to Jesus, Gandhi must be the greatest human being to walk the planet. That was in spite of the cult's teaching (and I was a devoted cult member at the time) that Joseph Smith was the greatest dude, next to Jesus.
Well, now in my 40's, I am the opinion that perhaps Gandhi is the greatest of them all (after all, if Jesus did live, he doesn't qualify for the contest, on account of Him being a God and all that).
Actually, perhaps there is no greatest. The human family is not a contest. And incidentally, if there is a league table, Joseph, in my view, is down at the bottom with the other low-life.
Anyway, back to Gandhi.
Gandhi was an English-educated lawyer - and a slightly unusual lawyer. When a client, who had committed an offence (criminal or civil), asked Gandhi to defend him in court, Gandhi would always counsel the client to plead guilty and accept the consequences. For Gandhi, truth, honesty and integrity were paramount. He would not defend a guilty man or woman - he would not lie on anyone's behalf.
Now consider Dallin H. Oaks.
Oaks is USA-educted lawyer, a justice of the Utah Supreme Court - and unfortunately, a slightly bent lawyer, actually the worst type. He was hired by the mormon cult to be a premanent peddler of deceit. For Oaks, truth, honesty and integrity are of little value. He will defend the guilty mormon cult, and has no problem lying on the cult's behalf.
It's funny, but the next time a vacancy for a lawyer crops up on the cult's board of 15 prophets, you can be sure they will never pick a Mohandas Gandhi, or a Bob McCue, or a T-Bone.
You can be certain they will pick a Dallin Oaks.
They need someone who can lie through their teeth.
| | Dallin Oaks In June Ensign: Quit Hanging Out And Start Dating Thursday, May 25, 2006, at 09:46 AM Original Author(s): Lunar Quaker Topic: DALLIN H. OAKS - SECTION 1 -Guid- | ↑ | We all knew it was coming. The church's growth is being threatened by young single adults who are taking longer and longer to get married. And people aren't having as many kids as they used to. The powers that be are pulling out the big guns now.
The June ensign just came to our house. I perused it, and there is some big talk about "twenty-something Peter Pans" who don't want to grow up. Dallin Oaks is saying that twenty-somethings need to quit "hanging out" and start DATING! Here are Dallin's reasons that dating has become an "endangered species":
1. The cultural tides in our world run strongly against commitment in family relationships...Divorce has been made legally easy, and childbearing has become unpopular.
2. The leveling effect of the women's movement has contributed to discourage dating. As women's options have increased and some women have become more aggressive, some men have become reluctant to take traditional male initiatives, such as asking for dates, lest they be thought to qualify for the dreaded label "male chauvinist."
3. Hanging out is glamorized on TV programs about singles.
4. The meaning and significance of a "date" has changed in such a way as to price dating out of the market... a date has to be an expensive production.
5. For many years, the church has counseled people not to date before age 16. Perhaps some young adults, especially men, have carried that wise counsel to excess and determined not to date before 26 or maybe even 36.
Some classic quotes from the article:
Men, if you have returned from your mission and you are still following the boy-girl patterns you were counseled to follow when you were 15, it is time to grow up. Gather your courage and look for someone to pair off with. Start with a variety of dates with a variety of young women, and when that phase yields a good prospect, proceed to courtship. It's marriage time. That is what the Lord intends for His young adult sons and daughters. Men have the initiative, and you men should get on with it.
My single young friends, we counsel you to channel your associations with the opposite sex into dating patterns that have the potential to mature into marriage, not hanging-out patterns that only have the prospect to mature into team sports like touch football. Marriage is not a group activity--at least, not until the children come along in goodly numbers.
Check out this counsel to young single women:
If you are just marking time waiting for a marriage prospect, stop waiting. You may never have the opportunity for a suitable marriage in this life, so stop waiting and start moving. Prepare yourself for life--even a single life--by education, experience, and planning. Don't wait for happiness to be thrust upon you. Seek it out in service and learning. Make a life for yourself. And trust in the Lord.
Well, folks, needless to say, I'm speechless. I was hoping that the church had given up on this kind of talk long ago. Apparently not. Seriously, this article infuriated me. So many kids get into trouble because of all this ridiculous marriage and kids talk that the GAs are dishing out.
Link to Article: http://www.lds.org/broadcast/ces/Oaks...
| There is something else in the “Dating Versus Hanging Out” Ensign article that got my attention. Oaks went off on how members shouldn’t write him letters about his talks. He said, “I only teach the general rules. Whether an exception applies to you is your responsibility.”
He offered as an example the following story of a man that once wrote him a letter:
“He explained that he had been a machine gunner during the Korean War. During a frontal assault, hi machine gun mowed down scores of enemy infantry. Their bodies were piled so high in front of his gun that he and his men had to push them away in order to maintain their field of fire. He had killed a hundred, he said, and now he must be going to hell because I had spoken of the Lord’s commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill.’”
What an ass! This guy believes that Oaks speaks for God. He has been living with that traumatic event probably for decades and Oaks probably said some strong words that made this guy question his standing before God.
Oaks seems to think that he is not responsible for what he says. He has the “authority” to tell people how to live and what to think but takes no responsibility for how his words affect his followers.
His comments in this talk also confirm what I have heard – that letters to the Apostles or First Presidency are, as a matter of policy, forwarded to the writer’s Bishop or Stake President so they can address the questions. I’m sorry, but can anyone but Oaks clarify a talk given by Oaks? If I have a question regarding Hinckley’s “I don’t know” statements wouldn’t an answer by anyone other than Hinckley only be their opinion?
Who declares and clarifies doctrine in this church? It appears that nobody does. Bishops and Stake Presidents can’t speak for the church. Any answer they give is merely their opinion. Not to mention that 100 Bishops would probably give 100 different answers!
I guess that’s probably why they do it that way now – so nobody can pin them down to any doctrinal position.
This is just another example of church leaders telling the members what they really think about them – they could care less. Members should be content to be sheep, fodder, pawns. They are to obey and not ask questions. Their questions and feelings are not important. Members are not important.
| I read Oak's article about dating vs hanging out.
If women weren't so doggone independent and aggressive due to the women's movement, then men wouldn't be afraid to ask them out on dates. Not only that, but by women letting men hang out and *gasp* feeding them (he called it subsidizing freeloaders) the the men won't "grow up" and start pairing off instead of just hangin out. Oh, and get this...he even says that "hanging out" is glamorized on TV and that contributes to the reason men don't ask women out on dates.
Also, because men are so darned sensitive, if we women aren't kind when we turn down a date, it might hurt the man's feelings so much he won't ask anyone else out...hear that men...you are just a bunch of wussies who can't handle rejection! He also said that women should look for inexpensive and simple dates and not expect expensive ones and certainly not dates that could lead to relationships, at least not until several dates later. And, don't go out on the internet to look, either, you losers.
The fact of the matter is society has changed. Men and women are waiting to get their education and started in their careers before saddling themselves with spouses and children. I think Oak's message (subliminal) is that the longer these young people wait to get hitched, the more prone they are to
have pre-marital sex which will lead to
no temple marriage which might lead to
having fewer children which might lead to
becoming more liberal in their thinking which might lead to
leaving the church thus not paying money to the corporation.
It almost sounds like the church is getting desperate. They can't bring in converts so they have to depend on home growing the numbers in the churcha and it just ain't happenin'.
There were a total of 8 articles that directly or indirectly talked about marriage, dating or keeping the family together. It must certainly be a problem for them to harp on it so hard.
| | Elder Dallin H. Oaks On The Absolute Power Of The Gift Of Discernment Wednesday, Jun 7, 2006, at 07:24 AM Original Author(s): Silence Dogood Topic: DALLIN H. OAKS - SECTION 1 -Guid- | ↑ | "In order to perform their personal ministries, Church leaders cannot be suspicious and questioning of each of the hundreds of people they meet each year. Ministers of the gospel function best in an atmosphere of trust and love. In that kind of atmosphere, they fail to detect a few deceivers, but that is the price they pay to increase their effectiveness in counseling, comforting, and blessing the hundreds of honest and sincere people they see. It is better for a Church leader to be occasionally disappointed than to be constantly suspicious."
Dallin H. Oaks, "Recent Events Involving Church History and Forged Documents," Ensign, Oct. 1987, 63.
This quote is part of a talk delivered by Oaks, attempting to explain how the Church got fooled by Mark Hofmann, who cost the Church thousands of dollars and the lives of two of its members.
| | Oaks Explains Why His Lies Aren't Lies - Teaches Future Church Leaders The True Order Of Lying Wednesday, Aug 2, 2006, at 08:43 AM Original Author(s): Lies And Damn Lies Topic: DALLIN H. OAKS - SECTION 1 -Guid- | ↑ | Today I read for the first time this speech given in 1993 by Dallin Oaks to BYU laws students and faculty. I suggest you read the entire speech since I have taken some of his remarks out of context below.
This speech combined with Packer's infamous "Not all things that are true are useful" speech goes a long way toward explaining the justification for the institutional lying that the church has engaged in from the beginning.
This speech should rightfully be titled "The True Order of Lying--How to lie without really lying", by Dallin Oaks
http://lds-mormon.com/oakslying.shtml
Out-of-context Highlights:
To be “true” includes appearing to be what we really are. To speak the truth is to give an accurate account of the facts.
A lie is most effective when it can travel incognito in good company or when it can be so intermarried with the truth that we cannot determine its lineage.
The lies of public officials may be the most damaging lies in terms of the number of people that they mislead and the consequences of the deception.
The lies of public officials, like the lies of religious leaders, are also extremely damaging in the way they degrade the moral tone of the entire community. Officials' lies and clergymen's lies are especially damaging to impressionable young people.
….Scriptural instructions establish that the obligation to tell the truth does not require one to tell everything he or she knows in all circumstances.
Indeed, we may have a positive duty to keep many things secret or confidential.
When the truth is constrained by other obligations, the outcome is not falsehood but silence for a reason.
A lie is also furthered when one remains silent in a circumstance where he or she has a duty to speak and disclose. In other words, a person lies by concealing when he or she has a duty to reveal. Some relationships and some circumstances create such a duty.
….When there is no duty to reveal all and when one has not made an affirmative statement implying that all has been revealed, it is simply incorrect to equate silence with lying.
….There are many sacred things that we do not discuss.
There are things we simply should not discuss or reveal. Sometimes we are silent out of loyalty to those we love. Sometimes we are silent because the Lord has confided in us, and we know we are not appointed to be the means of disseminating the knowledge to others. Sometimes there are other reasons.
To tell the truth is a general religious obligation, whether we are sworn or not.
In contrast to the obligation to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, the obligation to “tell the whole truth” is subject to an important qualification. In a judicial proceeding, the sworn duty to tell the whole truth is confined to matters relevant to the proceeding. It does not extend to other subjects. The duty to tell the whole truth is also limited by special legal protections, such as the privilege against self-incrimination.
The difficult question is whether we are morally responsible to tell the whole truth. When we have a duty to disclose, we are morally responsible to do so. Where there is no duty to disclose, we have two alternatives. We may be free to disclose if we choose to do so, but there will be circumstances where commandments, covenants, or professional obligations require us to remain silent.
| | Elder Oaks To BYU-Idaho Women: Your Destiny Is To Be A Wife And A Mother In Zion Thursday, Nov 16, 2006, at 06:49 AM Original Author(s): From Ohio (cleveland Stake) Topic: DALLIN H. OAKS - SECTION 1 -Guid- | ↑ | On Nov 7, 2006, Elder Dallin Oaks and his wife spoke at the Brigham Young University–Idaho Devotional.
This talk is a gem.
http://www.byui.edu/Presentations/Tra...
Here is a few highlights:
ELDER OAKS ON WHEN THE SAINTS WILL RETURN TO MISSOURI:
"My second subject of wisdom concerns looking beyond the mark. In the Book of Mormon the Prophet Jacob described a people who “despised the words of plainness, . . . and sought for things . . . they could not understand” (Jacob 4:14). He said this caused them to fall because when persons are “looking beyond the mark,” God takes away plainness and gives them what they sought¾things they cannot understand.
We see this today. For example, some persons write General Authorities asking when we will be returning to Missouri or how we should plan to build up the New Jerusalem. Others want to know details about the Celestial Kingdom, such as the position of a person who lives a good life but never ever marries.
I don’t know the answers to any of these questions. What I do know is that persons worrying about such things are probably neglecting to seek a firmer understanding and a better practice of the basic principles of the gospel that have been given to them with words of plainness by the scriptures and by the servants of the Lord."
ELDER OAKS ON THE ROLE OF WOMEN:
"Sisters, don’t fall for the worldly urging that women should emulate men in various masculine characteristics. That is not what the Lord created you to do. Please don’t misunderstand me. I am not saying that women should not be doctors or lawyers or any particular occupation that fits their circumstances. To use lawyering as an example, what I am saying is that women should not attempt to be manly lawyers. Nor should women emulate the worldly ways of womanhood. Your destiny is to be a wife and a mother in Zion, not a model and a streetwalker in Babylon."
SISTER OAKS ON HER FIRST MONTHS OF MARRIAGE TO ELDER OAKS
"When we first married, I was working as a consultant for a publishing house based in Boston. I never cooked except once a year. Poor Elder Oaks. The first few months we were married I burned everything, even grilled cheese sandwiches. I knew very little about housework; I didn’t even know how to match socks. Elder Oaks wears only two colors. black and blue. I called my married sister in tears and asked how to sort them and she told me to go stand by the window."
| | Does Dallin Oaks Really Believe that Moses Produced the Pentateuch? Monday, Jul 23, 2007, at 07:07 AM Original Author(s): Westberkeleyflats Topic: DALLIN H. OAKS - SECTION 1 -Guid- | ↑ | Oaks in his PBS interview:
The book of Job is one of the books of the Old Testament. I do not know which prophet brought it forth. We know that Moses brought forth what’s called the Pentateuch, and it is part of the great religious tradition of Judaism and Christianity. The book of Job I cut quite a bit of slack in where that came from and how literal one takes it because its povenance is quite different than the provenance of the first five books of the Old Testament. The first five books of the Old Testament I give as an example like the New Testament. We know their provenance. Subject to a lot of questions we’d like to have answered, we know who wrote the book of Luke, and who wrote John, and Paul wrote his letters, and so on – a lot about their provenance. They originate with prophets; so did the Pentateuch, so did the Book of Mormon. They’re on the same footing.
Does Oaks really believe that Moses produced the Pentateuch or that it is known who wrote the, nonsynoptic, gospel of John? I thought it was the purpose of FARMS to keep apostles from making fools of themselves by, for example, making statements that anyone who's taken a freshman-level Old Testament or New Testament survey course would laugh at.
And to think that he expressed dismay with Packer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Document...
| Here's another juicy one from GC, as reported in today's Trib:
Apostle Dallin H. Oaks urged Mormon parents to limit their children's extracurricular activities.
"Team sports and technology toys like video games and the Internet are already winning away the time of our children and youth," Oaks said. "Some young men and women are skipping church youth activities or are unavailable for family time in order to participate in soccer leagues or to pursue various entertainments."
They are "amusing themselves to death," he said, "spiritual death."
You'd think the Church would get the message that if youth activities were not so damned boring, the kids might show up. Instead of being "amused to death," they are "bored to death" at Church.
| See: http://ldsces.org/general%20authority...
Cult leader mentality on full display:
"President Gordon B. Hinckley described another kind of lack of context in his talk at October conference two years ago. His example applies to all writings on Church history and biography:?
"'We have those critics who appear to wish to cull out of a vast panorama of information those items which demean and belittle some of the men and women of the past who worked so hard in laying the foundation of this great cause. They find readers of their works who seem to delight in picking up these tidbits, and in chewing them over and relishing them. In so doing they are savoring a pickle, rather than eating a delicious and satisfying dinner of several courses."
"'We recognize that our forebears were human. They doubtless made mistakes. . . . But the mistakes were minor, when compared with the marvelous work which they accomplished. To highlight the mistakes and gloss over the greater good is to draw a caricature. Caricatures are amusing, but they are often ugly and dishonest. A man may have a blemish on his cheek and still have a face of beauty and strength, but if the blemish is emphasized unduly in relation to his other features, the portrait is lacking in integrity. . . .?
"'I do not fear truth. I welcome it. But I wish all of my facts in their proper context, with emphasis on those elements which explain the great growth and power of this organization.' (In Conference Report, Oct. 1983, p. 68; or Ensign, Nov. 1983, p. 46.)?
"In short, readers need to be sensitive to the reality that historical and biographical facts can only contribute to understanding when they are communicated in context.?"
More:
"Satan can even use truth to promote his purposes. Truth can be used unrighteously. Facts, severed from their context, can convey an erroneous impression. Persons who make true statements out of an evil motive, such as those who seek to injure another, use the truth unrighteously. A person who preaches the truths of the gospel 'for the sake of riches and honor' (Alma 1:16) commits the sin of priestcraft. Persons who reveal truths that they hold under obligations of confidentiality, such as medical doctors, or lawyers, or bishops who have heard confessions, are guilty of wrongdoing. And a person who learns some embarrassing fact and threatens to reveal it unless he is paid off commits a crime we call blackmail, even if the threatened disclosure is true.?
"The fact that something is true is not always a justification for communicating it. While instructing the Corinthian Saints not to partake of meat offered in sacrifice to idols, the Apostle Paul explained,?
"'All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not' (1 Corinthians 10:23).?
"By the same token, some things that are true are not edifying or appropriate to communicate. Readers of history and biography should ponder that moral reality as part of their effort to understand the significance of what they read.?"
It's a classic "some things that are true are not useful."
Doubtless none of the Oakster's listeners bothered to realize that someone who witholds truth because it might not be "faith-promoting" are also engaging in deception.
This next paragraph is perfect from what comes later:
"As members of the Church, we have the gift of the Holy Ghost. If we will use our spiritual powers of discernment, we will not be misled by the lies and half-truths Satan will circulate in his attempts to deceive us and to thwart the work of God.?"
You can't help but laugh after reading the above paragraph and then reading these subsequent ones:
"Another source of differences in the accounts of different witnesses is the different meanings that different persons attach to words. We have a vivid illustration of this in the recent media excitement about the word salamander in a letter Martin Harris is supposed to have sent to W. W. Phelps over 150 years ago. All of the scores of media stories on that subject apparently assume that the author of that letter used the word salamander in the modern sense of a 'tailed amphibian.'
"One wonders why so many writers neglected to reveal to their readers that there is another meaning of salamander, which may even have been the primary meaning in this context in the 1820s. That meaning, which is listed second in a current edition of Webster's New World Dictionary, is "a spirit supposed to live in fire" (2d College ed. 1982, s.v. "salamander"). Modern and ancient literature contain many examples of this usage.?
"A spirit that is able to live in fire is a good approximation of the description Joseph Smith gave of the angel Moroni: a personage in the midst of a light, whose countenance was "truly like lightning" and whose overall appearance "was glorious beyond description" (Joseph Smith-History 1:32). As Joseph Smith wrote later, "The first sight [of this personage] was as though the house was filled with consuming fire" (History of the Church, 4:536). Since the letter purports only to be Martin Harris's interpretation of what he had heard about Joseph's experience, the use of the words white salamander and old spirit seem understandable.?
"In view of all this, and as a matter of intellectual evaluation, why all the excitement in the media, and why the apparent hand-wringing among those who profess friendship with or membership in the Church? The media should make more complete disclosures, but Latter-day Saint readers should also be more sophisticated in their evaluation of what they read.?"
Discernment and the Holy Ghost (TM) sure must be powerful. They obviously helped Dallin out quite a bit to know that the Salamander Letter was a fradulent document created by Mark Hofmann before he endorsed it talking to mormon "educators."
| | Oaks: Spiritual Knowledge Is Different Than Regular Old Knowledge Sunday, Apr 6, 2008, at 08:22 AM Original Author(s): Lincoln Topic: DALLIN H. OAKS - SECTION 1 -Guid- | ↑ | On Saturday April 5th, 2008 conference, Oaks tries too hard to be an imposing presence and comes off as a bit statuesque with his trademark outstretched arms. This talk upset me because Oaks is again playing word games with the membership, and not really revealing any truths that God or an angel told him about.
"The idea that all truth is based on scientific evidence is simply untrue."
As if you have the right to talk about truth. You lied to the media about BKP's participation in the Toscano excommunication. You have attempted to hide the truth of Joseph Smith's polygamy by limiting the influence of historical books. Whatever Dallin. The only way you can talk about truth is if you respect the truth, which you do not. STFU.
"Things of God are spiritually discerned. That knowledge does not come from books or scientific proof."
Well if that's that case, I guess we can just toss the Book of Mormon right out the window. It's a book. So if books are all worthless at finding out about God, that means the Book of Mormon is worthless as well.)
"When we know spiritual truths by spiritual means, we can know with the same surety its truthfulness, as a scientist when discovering scientific evidence"
This is just pure BS, nothing much has to be said other than, are you freaking kidding me?
"We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it."
Here we go again, putting the cart before the horse. So its okay to tell a lie, because at the moment of telling the lie, God will tell you its true, right? How convoluted can this get?
"We encourage children to define themselves by their growing testimonies, not their athletic or academic achievements."
Well, I guess serving as President of BYU really reinforced his perception of quality education.
"Each of us has two distinct channels to God, the first is Governance which is obedience to the leadership, and the second is Personal Testimony which gives us our knowledge in his existence."
This tricky SOB is trying to tell me that the obedience to the leadership is just as valid a way to God as my own personal testimony. What a snow job.
Oaks makes a great play at trying to differentiate between differing "types of knowledge." He employs a subtle trick attempting to have the membership actually believe that the only way to learn knowledge about spiritual things is from the Spirit. Tricky Dallin. And who trademarks the Spirit? COJCOLDS, right? Nice. Just like last conference, I'm not buying into this shit.
| | Dallin Oaks - Like Boyd K. Packer - Instructs Members To Gain A Testimony By Giving It Thursday, Apr 17, 2008, at 07:04 AM Original Author(s): Sick Of It Topic: DALLIN H. OAKS - SECTION 1 -Guid- | ↑ | Mormonism is a religion of extremes, nothing is gray, there is just black and white conviction. In effect, it is never enough to “believe” in Mormonism, or to have “faith” in Mormonism, worthy members are expected to gain a certainty of “Knowledge” that Mormonism is true.
This “testimony” comes through a “personal revelation” from God via the Holy Ghost and is as serious as any testimony offered in a court of law - perhaps more so, because God’s commandment specifically states that “thou shalt not bear FALSE witness”. A testimony - a personal witnessing of fact - is serious stuff for True Bible Believers.
Yet, in the April 2008 General Conference, Dallin Oaks made the following statement:
“Another way to seek a testimony seems astonishing when compared with the methods of obtaining other knowledge. We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them.”
So, in effect, eventually you GAIN a perfect knowledge from God by routinely pretending in public that you already HAVE that perfect knowledge! All this time you let everyone else continue to think that you’ve already HAD this “revelation” from God when in truth you simply wanted to GET a revelation.
What kind of perverse thinking is this? Yet, to the church, such “technical distinctions” between belief and knowledge don’t seem to matter - why? Because the Church is True anyway, so the end justifies such means.
Teaching people (often young people) to outright lie is obviously not a great issue to Mormon leaders. Soon the members don’t know the difference between lying and honesty anyway.
The message is always this: “Truth comes through feelings”. Just ask any con man about the notion, but remember, the “con” in con man stands for “confidence” . A con man is a person you would trust with your life, such men are totally believable, that’s why they are so effective. Christ said such “Con Men” or “false Prophets” will look just like innocent lambs, but they will eat you alive like the wolves they are inside! Instead, Christ said to analyze their “fruits”, that is; to analyze the outcome of their work. Anyone who teaches you to lie, must be a liar themselves.
And it isn’t just ONE leader, it’s the entire Mormon system. Oaks was only parroting Boyd K. Packer who put it in similar words: “The gaining of a testimony is in the bearing of it.” Clearly this is church policy and uncontested doctrine.
Lying to other members is an essential process, and who would know that better than the Leader/liars themselves.
| | The Holy Ghost Is Like A Burning In The Bosom - But Not According To Oaks Monday, Feb 2, 2009, at 08:08 AM Original Author(s): Measure Topic: DALLIN H. OAKS - SECTION 1 -Guid- | ↑ | As I was reading through the Gospel Doctrine manual, lesson 6, I ran across this quote from Dallin Oaks. I can tell, it's going to be a lot of fun when I write up my review of this lesson next week.
“I have met persons who told me they have never had a witness from the Holy Ghost because they have never felt their bosom ‘burn within’ them. What does a ‘burning in the bosom’ mean? Does it need to be a feeling of caloric heat, like the burning produced by combustion? If that is the meaning, I have never had a burning in the bosom. Surely, the word ‘burning’ in this scripture signifies a feeling of comfort and serenity” (Ensign,Mar. 1997, 13)
So we have some apostles and prophets on record as saying the holy ghost causes a burning in the bosom, but Oaks on record saying it does no such thing! Incredible.
| I didn't know I would be spending my Easter with a large congregation watching a satellite broadcast of three people on subjects other than Easter. It was very impersonal, disappointing, and unfulfilling. I honestly don't remember hearing anything other than a passing reference about the glorious resurrection of Christ. Happy, Easter! :(
I took a few notes from the Easter Midwest Area Conference another poster described. Not word for word:
Dallin H. Oaks [Mormon Apostle]: In his introduction, he spoke rather condescendingly of the way others celebrate easter: "This conference is NOT EXCLUSIVELY FOR EASTER. WE celebrate it WEEKLY...It is far more significant than the large and unique celebration of one Sabbath per year...Others are celebrating today with candy, eggs, and bunnies."
The majority of his talk was on subjects unrelated to Easter.
He told young people they lacked perspective. "You have ONLY 10 years of perspective...YOU DON'T SEE EVERYTHING AROUND YOU...Perspective is an advantage your parents and grandparents have.." He then brought in an example of perspective from an Audrey Hepburn movie, African Queen as if show he was in touch with culture Two main characters trying to reach Lake Victoria by boat don't realize how close they are because their perspective is obscured by the growth around them)
Oaks then spoke about his many years in Illinois and how he had spoken at virutally every stake conference in the Midwest since "being called to be an apostle 25 years ago" this month.
He emphasized how he and others had REPEATEDLY counseled us to avoid debt and become self-sufficient: "I have said this again and again at numerous stake conferences around the midwest... AVOID DEBT."
He then gave advice for keeping out debt. He paused for a few seconds, encouraging members to write these things down. "Husbands should regularly tell their wives these four things:
1) I love you
2) I'm sorry
3) Yes, dear
4) We can't afford it"
He made it very clear that the church welfare program was to be used as a last resort. I'm sure if anyone falls into need now or is using the system, they must feel VERY GUILTY. I felt really bad for a large, faithful, tithe- paying family in sitting close to me. Their father had lost his job and the church had been helping them with their mortgage payments so they wouldn't be foreclosed. Oaks words must have been very painful to them.
As an aside, the fasts offering program here in the Midwest is running a huge deficit (according to our leaders). A new strategy has been introduced to increase donations: the deacons will now travel by car great distances with the priests to collect fast offerings (this is done in Utah where member live close together-not as practical our here).
He then indicated that through TITHING we can QUALIFY for all blessings the Lord has for us.
Steven Snow: Spoke for several minutes about how his son was injured in a bike accident and was left in a coma for days. Spoke of the fun he had asking his son afterwards what day it was, knowing his son would always get it wrong because he had lost his short term memory.
Then he somehow twisted this into an lesson of how we must not lose or short spiritual memory and how we cannot rely on our long term memories, such as our mission experience, to keep us going strong. I found this interesting because many GAs have told me that their missionary experience is often the only thing that keeps them going in the gospel.
He then mentioned how we cannot hang our faith on visits from heavenly messengers, noting how Laman and Lemuel turned away after seeing an angel. I wasn't sure how to reconcile this with importance placed on the first vision.
Summary: we cannot rely upon past spiritual experiences. Compare this to Elder Eyring's talk, "Remember: from a few years ago.
Margeret Lifferth: A very nice lady who spoke about growing up in Ames, Iowa and other warm fuzzies that warmed up local members.
President Monson: I don't remember what he talked about. He spoke very softly and they didn't turn up the sound. I looked around and it didn't seme like many were payng attention. I think he was telling some nice stories about widows and little boys in his trademark sing-songy voice.
Rather than speak about Christ, the speakers essentially spoke about getting more people to do their duties, come to church, participate in activities, and pay tithing.
| | "Profit" / "Apostate" Oaks To Mormons In Eight States: You Were Warned; You're On Your Own Tuesday, Apr 14, 2009, at 09:16 AM Original Author(s): Troubled Wife Topic: DALLIN H. OAKS - SECTION 1 -Guid- | ↑ | It is really up to the bishop as to how much help you can get from the wards, and bishops are under a lot of pressure from the higher ups!
Here's my experience:
as a kid, I didn't know any difference - I know my folks would occasionally get food orders, normally we didn't go with them, the food just showed up.
As a young, newly married, realizing we just were not making it, I went to the bishop for help - just food please, I've worked out a lot with our creditors....
I was told that we needed to quit our job (that we had looked for 6 months for, moved ourselves 1200 miles to accept, and dh was moving up the "chain"), and move back home with family (his folks were on church assistance for health reasons, his brother the church was paying to keep on a mission, his married sister and bil were between jobs... my side, I was the oldest and only one with a job, brother was incarcerated)! So, we wouldn't get any help from that bishop. So I refused to pay tithing (first time in my life). I needed that money to put a meager $25.00 a week on the table (my husband and myself) and diaper a newborn baby.
Three years later, I went to the state, and dh was making too much money for aide, so I went to the bishop again. He insisted we needed to pay tithing. So, I stopped paying the bills and paid tithing, only to be told that we weren't worthy enough to receive any help because we weren't being honest with our fellow men!
GOOD GAWD! I was visiting teaching his DIL.... she worked at a local big business, making what my dh made, married to a guy who worked for another big company making twice what my dh made, she only had two kids from a previous marriage. Every month that I visited her she would cry praises for the church's welfare program because with out it, she wouldn't be able to feed her kids! (DAMN! I had 3 by that time and had just realized I was too far along with #4 to do anything but have another baby!) While we lived in that ward, from that time on, I was inactive, refused to pay anything towards tithing, but craved the visits from my visiting teachers (we were never home-taught), and I never went back asking for help again either. I wasn't going to even be a burden on the ward when we had babies - I didn't let them know when I had my 4th baby, so no meals were brought in, no help with the kids was ever accepted (though as a young mom I sure could have used it), unless I paid a teen to help me.
Then the next ward that we got help in.... We had just bought a house, which because of the number of kids we had (6) we were actually saving $200/mo! My mother had died, my FIL had died. My father was out of work, my MIL was sewing her heart out to try and keep the lights on. Two weeks after we moved into our new house (a HUD repo with LOTS of work needed), dh's job unexpectedly lost funding. Lucky for us the big corporation had another position in another department for dh. BUT, it made us go 3 weeks without a paycheck. There just was no way.
So, I swallowed my "pride" and went to the bishop. Immediately I was told that we needed to sell our house! and go back to renting. There was no help for us! UMMMM, we were paying $200 LESS than renting because of the number of kids we had... and the $950 that we had been paying was finally breaking down and lying to a new landlord and saying we only had 3 kids! Selling was NOT an option! Last time I went to that bishop. We sucked up and put up with the bad credit scores that ensued because of the timing of pay checks... not fun.
Then, two years later, a new bishop, I was his wife's VT... somehow it got out that we were struggling. This bishop was an owner of a new string of stores - Whole Foods. Though we didn't qualify for church aid (we didn't pay tithing), he had a very kind heart. Every week, we would come home from work and find big baskets and boxes of fresh produce and farmer's goods. He may never know how much that meant to us, though he denied that he was the one who was delivering the goods (non-member neighbors told us it was a man in his truck that was delivering the food, so we knew it was him).
The next ward, we paid our tithing, much to the woes of my dh who has never had a "testimony" of tithing. Then, the dot com industry had a problem. We were in the ranks of the UNEMPLOYED - well, out of his consistent and constant paychecks. We went to the bishop. The first thing out of his mouth was to sell the house! Ummmm, where would we go - we had 8 kids! The next thing was to call on family - again, ummmmm, Nope, no go. Sure there was ONE family member who was willing to take us on... in her 1300 SF house with 4 other kids and an abusive husband! NO THANKS. We had to get letters from all our family explaining their living situation. GAWD, if that isn't awful!
Finally, he agreed that the church could provide us with food (I was still working by attending births), but ONLY if dh would really go out and get work. SHOOOT... do you know how many times I had to take our 3 ringed, 3 inch binder into the bishop's office? Yes, we documented every contact, every hour dh was looking for work!
After 5 months, I was told that they couldn't keep giving us food unless I went out and got a job with a consistent and constant paycheck (births were sporatic). So I did - but now my job didn't pay as much as the births had, so we NEEDED to have the house payment made - my job ONLY covered the utilities. They DID come through, it took 3 months, but they did finally come through...
BUT, then the stake pres told us that we needed to sell.... and he was even adamant as to whom we should sell our house to! An investor who lived in the Stake president's ward! NO THANK YOU! He had already contacted us and was only willing to buy from us for 1/3rd of what we owed...not even close to the $700K that the house would have sold for on the market at that time!
Well, of course the leaders that were insisted that we would loose the house and be on the street in no time. BUT, we were able to keep things going... finally landing DH a job with the largest private corporation selling handguns at the time (WALMART). Finally with dh's new pay, my pay we made 1/2 of what he had made previously...so I contacted our creditors again... got off of church financial assistance (and onto state aid for medical), and only used the bishop's storehouse (should have done the food stamps, but hind-sight is lots better than being in the moment).
13 months later, we FINALLY got a job paying more than he had made before he had been laid off. BUT, after all the "S#!T" we went through, we have decided that it will be a cold day in the tropics before we ever approach the bishop again, and we will NEVER go onto food help either. We'll grow it or get help elsewise if we find we are in need.
So, all this to say agree that when the Saints need help, as much as they may have paid into the system, the church probably WILL NOT pay them a dime or help them at all. There will definitely be boats of guilt heaped upon anyone who asks for any help. And well, the idea of having mortgages/rents utilities or other bills paid... when hell gets icy! You have a better chance of getting help from the state or the banking industry!
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