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THE MORMON CURTAIN
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2008 Exmormon Foundation Conference Oct. 17 - 19, 2008
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The time is flying! And time to remind everyone again about the Exmormon Foundation coming up October
17-19, 2008.
Please join us for our annual weekend of education, enlightenment, personal stories, and mingling with a group of interesting and brave people who are exploring life after Mormonism.
Embassy Suites Hotel, Salt Lake City, UT Click here for details: http://www.exmormonfoundation.org/200....
Amazing line up of activities and speakers for 2008, including Steven Hassan - mental health counselor and expert on cults!
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EX-MORMONISM SECTION 9
Total Articles:
50
A very large selection of posts made by those in recovery from Mormonism. Culled from throughout the Ex-Mormon Communities.
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This has been one of the hardest things in leaving Mormonism. I was taught never to question authority.
I have learned over the years that it's OK. But at the same time, I've noticed some institutions that really don't appreciate it. The Mormon Church, for example.
Look at the way chapels are built. The bishop is on an imposing stand. He is given all sorts of authority. His 1st and 2nd counselors sit next to him like bodyguards.
Then look at the authority that is given to 19 year olds with nametags. They can conduct all sorts of magic rituals. Baptize (in other words, save your soul), see the future, hear individualized messages from God (the ultimate authority), and even bless people.
Look at the terms used to describe Mormon leaders. General Authorities. My weatherman calls himself the weather authority. And even though he frequently gets it wrong, he is still an authority. People quote him as if he were the ultimate authority.
But bringing it back to church. I remember wanting to know more about how things worked. I used to ask my teachers 'why' quite a lot. They didn't like that. For example, "Why would God require that his only begotten son be tortured and killed when he could magically make everything better?" They didn't like that at all.
"Why did Joseph Smith find a book that prophesies about his coming after he was already here?" They really didn't like that one. They set out to break me.
Throw in 2 dysfunctional parents whose favorite line was "Because I said so" and you have a kid whose natural curiosity is beaten out of him. He no longer asks questions. And he's willing to follow any person who claims to be a leader or an authority.
Then I get out of Mormonism, and there are no strong authority figures in my life. I had to find my own way.
My point is not that we have to go around questioning everything. There is a reason we have speed limits. It makes good public policy. There is a reason we have lines on the road, stop signs, and things like that.
What I'm talking about is questioning arbitrary authority - people who claim power. Priesthood power is a good example. There is no way a bishop who knows nothing about me is going to be able to make better choices about my life than I can. If he can't, what's to make me think an 80 year old guy I've never met can tell me how to live? He can't.
Mormon priesthood authority is fake. What if somebody came up to you in the store and started telling you how to live your life? You'd laugh, right? What if he told you an angel told him to speak to you? Mormon authority is based on unverifiable sources.
Letting somebody who asserts false authority tell us how to live is ignoring our own reasoning abilities. Don't you think you have more experience with your inner workings than an 80 year old man you've never met? Why give him authority to tell you how to live? Why let a middle aged guy tell you how to live your life when he doesn't even know you?
Eventually, I woke up to false authority. It's a lie. It's a sham. I don't even need to know the motivation behind it. I just need to recognize that by following false authority, I'm ignoring my own inner compass. And allowing false authority to get me off track can cost me years of my life. I don't want that. I've already done that.
So my point is, when we learn how to pick our battles and learn how to question falsely asserted authority, we get closer to living more authentic lives. I wish I had more time to elaborate, but I'm on my way to a class.
| After 4, almost 5 years after leaving the church I have a few things that stand out as the biggest experiences. But each one of those experiences is really about integrating back into a decompressed life.
I was disintegrated in many ways as a member. I was drawn and quartered emotionally. I was unbalanced and unable to truly feel the way typical people fell about life, about love, about sex, but mostly about nature.
For me, the biggest aspect of regaining my life after Mormonism was realizing how I was extracted from nature, removed almost entirely from natural things. I was so enmeshed in silly doctrines and silly rituals that I had become void of feelings. I had become absolutely void of nature. My real feelings had be kidnapped and replaced with unnatural fake feelings. Forced feelings. Almost everything about me was forced, unbalanced, and unnatural.
Most of you aren't gay, but I am and I was fighting that battle most of the time. But I believe that after all was said and done, it was not just my sexuality that was suppressed but my "nature". I felt as though I was walking in a removed place from everyone else. I woulod see happy people in the grocery or in the mall and I would be struck by how they seemed to be enjoying life so...naturally.
There is an astounding occurrence in Mormonism that is difficult to explain, but Mormonism pulled me out of real life, and forced me to live in a very odd way. My body had become a vehicle that did nothing but obey the crazy thoughts in my head. Even when I was "acting out", cheating with men and seeking some sort of something to make me feel better I was really seeking nature. My sexuality is my nature. But "my nature" is larger than that. I depend now on a connection with the outside world. I depend on relaxing outside, on focusing on natural things, hikes in the wide open. I am a product of nature, but the very structure of Mormonism is not natural. The ideas are not natural. Nothing about Mormon doctrine is natural. Not only that, but it's the antithesis of nature.
The bizarre church building are not natural, they are closed to outside things, and even if there are windows, they're small and covered and insignificant. The lighting in the chapels is horrific and unnatural. The shapes of the rooms are unnatural, and they way you have to act in them is unnatural. The rituals are unnatural, the garments that cover you up so you can't feel anything are unnatural. The way the leaders invasively probe your very life is extremely unnatural.
If you're BIC, you're REALLY a fucked up person. And as I've said before, we exmormons are really fucked up people because we're recovering from something that will take us, some of us, a lifetime to rid ourselves of. Some of us move faster than others, but we cannot place a time limit on our recovery. And recovery goes WAY the fuck beyond this BB, although I owe this place a LOT of my recovery.
If we all sit and think about it, we can name a huge list of ways the cult removed us from nature, removed us from life in general, ripped us away from who we REALLy are. We are products of nature. We are NOT what they say we are.
| It's true. I left because I was offended. I was angry and I was bitter. At first I told myself I wasn't angry or bitter... that I had somehow just graduated beyond what the church could do for me. But I was just lying to myself. I really was offended, truly.
It angered me to the core that my mother couldn't come to the wedding because she wasn't a member. And for what? NOTHING! Nothing beyond the church's collective masturbatory, self-congratulatory, sick plan to ostracize others for the sole purpose of instilling a sense of massive superiority over the rest of the world.
I AM OFFENDED by being victimized and wracked with guilt for coming home early from my mission. Didn't they know my family was falling APART? My mother's heart had been broken, I hadn't seen her in several years already and now they were shipping me off to South America??? It was too much for her to take and she nearly disowned me forever. I HATE the church for making me feel like I was doing something wrong by going home to her. I'm so glad I did.
I AM BITTER AND ANGRY that my dear mother-in-law, so poor already, still gives 10% of what little retirement income she has, in addition to paying into the perpetual education fund, paying into the missionary fund and every other request that comes along from time to time. In her old age, she shouldn't have to worry about such things. They say that 10% across the board is the Lord's fair way of assessing taxes, but I say that's BULLSHIT. I could pay 10% and live comfortably on the remaining 90%, but for my mother-in-law and others like her, that 10% can mean the difference between getting the toilet fixed or even going to the doctor.
I AM SO MAD that the church knowingly put me in a position wherein I would have to one day tell my teenage son and daughter that their daddy was a fool, and that we've all been fooled, and that everything that we've taught them was a lie.
I AM FURIOUS that after skipping family home evening one night, my 12 year old daughter sadly commented to my wife that "we're really not a very good family, are we, mom?" That is INSANE!
It infuriated me that as a young man, I had decided to follow something bigger and more important than anything I could have ever imagined, only to discover that it was all a total farce. A ploy to get my money and my obedience. Boy was I an idiot! They really got me... I'll tell you.
I was offended that the church felt it was above the need to follow it's own rules pertaining to honesty in all things, DELIBERATELY withholding information, misrepresenting facts, and outright LYING while at the same time requiring me to be honest in all things. I grew to hate the church for that.
I AM OFFENDED at Elder Bednar's continued poisoning of the minds of those whom I still love and miss. I am offended at his manipulation in leading them to believe that my leaving the church was somehow MY fault instead of Joseph Smith's.
Lastly, I am INCENSED BEYOND EXPLANATION that the church has robbed me of my spirituality and the ability to trust my feelings and gut instinct. Why I ever allowed myself to believe them when they told me, "the warm feelings you feel is the holy ghost telling you it's true" is beyond me. I was so stupid. I was a fool. A patsy. A toy and I meant NOTHING to them. All they wanted was my money, my time, and my family.
| This has been in the back of my mind for quite some time, but I haven't ever adapted it for Post-Mormons.
Skeptical and I were discussing our identification with the LGBT community due to emotional parallels between "coming out" and leaving the mormon church.
What follows is something I adapted from Cass's model of Homosexual Identity Development (Cass, V. Homosexual Identity Development, 1979). I think it is a fair description of the general trajectory that many people experience when they exit the mormon church, and provides a good framework for understanding different psychological tasks people encounter on their journeys away from a mormon identity.
Identity Confusion
"Could I be an apostate?" Person is beginning to wonder if "apostacy" is personally relevant. Denial and confusion is experienced.
Task: Am I an "apostate"? - Accept, Deny, Reject.
Possible Responses: Will avoid information about controversial issues in the Mormon church; inhibit behavior; deny or rationalize doubts or criticisms ("I'm just an apologist. I'm just reading up on church history.").
Possible Needs: May explore internal positive and negative judgments about people who are critical of the Moormon church. Will be permitted to be uncertain about their "testimony". May find support in knowing that there are many options for dealing with doubt and confusion about spiritual matters. May benefit from being permitted and encouraged to explore spiritual identity as other normal experience (like career identity, and social identity).
Identity Comparison
"Maybe this does apply to me." Will accept the possibility that she or he may not believe in the claims of the Mormon church. Self-alienation becomes isolation.
Task: Deal with social alienation.
Possible Responses: May begin to grieve for losses and the things she or he will give up by embracing their disbelief. May compartmentalize their own spirituality. Accepts "apostate" positions about the Mormon church, but maintains "True-Believing Mormon" identity of self. Tells oneself, "My doubts are only temporary"; "I'm just waiting for a deeper understanding of the gospel," etc.
Possible Needs: Will be very important that the person develops own definitions of what it means to leave the Mormon church. Will need information about different approaches to spiritual identity, post mormon community resources, encouragement to talk about loss of Mormon cultural life expectations. May feel the need for "permission" to keep some "Mormon" identity (it is not an all or none issue).
Identity Tolerance
"I'm not the only one." Accepts the probability of being an "apostate" and recognizes spiritual, social, emotional needs that go with being Post Mormon. Increased commitment to being Post Mormon.
Task: Decrease social alienation by seeking out former Mormon community.
Possible Responses: Beginning to have language to talk and think about the issue. Recognition that being a former Mormon does not preclude other options. Accentuates difference between self and "True-Believing Mormons". Seeks out Post Mormon culture (positive contact leads to more positive sense of self, negative contact leads to devaluation of the Post Mormon culture, stops growth). May try out variety of stereotypical roles.
Possible Needs: Be supported in exploring own shame feelings derived from Mormon cultural stereotypes of apostates, as well as external harassment and alientation from Mormon family and friends. Receive support in finding positive Post Mormon community connections. It is particularly important for the person to know community resources.
Identity Acceptance
"I will be okay." Accepts, rather than tolerates, Post Mormon self-image. There is continuing and increased contact with the Post Mormon culture.
Task: Deal with inner tension of no longer subscribing to Mormon cultural norms, attempt to bring congruence between private and public view of self.
Possible Responses: Accepts Post Mormon self-identification. May compartmentalize their Post Mormon life from other aspects of their life." Maintains less and less contact with Mormon community. Attempts to "fit in" and "not make waves" within the Post Mormon community. Begins some selective disclosures of Post Mormon identity. More social coming out; more comfortable being seen with groups of men or women that are identified as "apostates." More realistic evaluation of situation.
Possible Needs: Continue exploring grief and loss of Mormon cultural life expectations. Continue exploring internalized learned shame about being an "apostate" in the Mormon culture. Find support in making decisions about where, when, and to whom he or she self discloses.
Identity Pride
"I've got to let people know who I am!" Immerses self in Post Mormon culture. Less and less involvement with Mormon community. Us-them quality to political/social viewpoint.
Task: Deal with incongruent views of Mormons.
Possible Responses: Splits world into "Post Mormon" (good) and "True-Believing Mormon" (bad). Experiences disclosure crises with Mormons as he or she is less willing to "blend in." Identifies Post Mormon culture as sole source of support; all Post Mormon friends, business connections, social connections.
Possible Needs: Receive support for exploring anger issues. Find support for exploring issues of Mormon culture-based mistreatment. Develop skills for coping with reactions and responses to disclosure of Post Mormon identity. Resist being defensive!
Identity Synthesis
Develops holistic view of self. Defines self in a more complete fashion, not just in terms of spirtual identity.
Task: Integrate Post Mormon identity so that instead of being the identity, it is on aspect of self.
Possible Responses: Continues to be angry at Mormon culture-based mistreatment, but with decreased intensity. Allows trust of others to increase and build. Post Mormon identity is integrated with all aspects of "self." Feels all right to move out into broader community and not simply define space according to spiritual identity.
| I was baptised when I was 9, because this was at a point of inactivity for my mom and my dad isn't LDS.
And I thought it was so awkward. There was something about it that scared me. They asked me to pick out a hymn to be sung, and I kept asking, "Aren't there any that are JUST about Jesus, not about the temple?" I didn't like the little white outfit, the water... most people relate the experience of baptism as something positive and something that fills them with joy... for me, even though I was just 9, it was terrifying. I felt like I was drowning.
And until I got to be about 13, I always regarded the church as something like a joke (funny how children see the truth better...). I'd laugh when priesthood holders would put their hands on my head, I'd try to take two pieces of bread at sacrament, etc. It wasn't until I got older that I started getting suckered in. The reason I probably didn't earlier was because I didn't start going to church until I was 9, so the initial brainwashing hadn't been performed on me.
At first I thought all the rules were stupid. WHY couldn't I double-pierce my ears? WHY couldn't I drink coffee? WHY was all the music that my dad listened to (AC/DC, Led Zeppelin, etc) considered "bad?" The more I asked, the less answers I got. When my friends would ask, "Man, don't you have like, a TON of rules in your church?" I'd be like "Yeah... it's annoying."
But then eventually, I guess I got taken under the water, because I started thinking like they wanted me to: it's only hard to deal with the rules when you don't accept them! When it gets down to it, the rules are only there to protect us and make us HAPPIER! And is it really bad that I don't get my ears double-pierced, that I can't drink coffee or listen to my dad's music? Not at all! It's all okay!
I'd always held lingering doubts deep-down, but the more times I went to church, the more I liked it. I wasn't ever a Molly Mormon, but I was halfway there.
There was one thing that always held me back from totally fitting in, and that was the fact that I was creative. As I learned the hard way, ultimately creative, thinking-outside-the-box types just don't do well in the Mormon church. I had a leader that desperately tried to get me to conform, to stop wearing black, to stop listening to rock music, to try out for the volleyball team instead of the school play (because theatre, apparently, is were Satan lurks).
I continued in this way until my sophomore year of highschool, at which point I met my husband, a devout atheist. He didn't try to get me to not be Mormon (on the contrary, though he hated it as much as I do now, he would have converted if I'd asked it of him), nor did he tell me I was wrong. But he did encourage me to be myself, to THINK. And that's when I realise that I'd been right as a child: it was baloney.
And now, from the outside looking it, I'm really disgusted with myself that I listened to it for so long. These guys have brainwashing down to a science. My dad, when I told him that I really honestly didn't consider myself Mormon, hugged me and said, "God, I was wondering when you'd come back." And I'm glad that I am. It feels so good to think.
| The Importance Of Developing Critical Thinking Skills Is The Most Important Skill We Can Acquire In A Post Mormon World
Article Archived: Friday, Jun 1, 2007, at 09:20 AM
Stored Under Topic: EX-MORMONISM SECTION 9
Outside Link To Article: RIGHT CLICK - COPY LINK LOCATION
Original Author Of Article: Chad (Swedeboy) Spjut | TOP | |
Think about it, you have been through a great deal working through the maze of Mormon deception and programming. You have literally changed the physical structure of your brain by re-wiring your thought patterns to accept a new reality, that of the realization of the fraud of Mormonism. This has been no small feat, no simple change of the mind, for most it was the change of self, at our very core and minds.
As I examine my present situation and compare who I am now to that of who I once was, I see that my mind and the ability to think on a more critical level has increased dramatically. I am not completely cured of false thought patterns, however my continual striving for better, and a more logical and reasoned approach to life is serving me well.
I recently read a book, which I believe should be REQUIRED reading for anyone, but in particular the former Mormon. The book is titled: Don't Believe Everything You Think: The 6 Basic Mistakes We Make in Thinking by Thomas Kida. I borrowed it from a fellow RFMer and found myself enthralled as I read through the pages, debunking and clarifying the human mind and the fantastic abilities we posses. In the end I learned that in many, many ways we can not always trust our own thinking, let alone our “spiritual” experiences unless we can temper them with sound logic and reason.
I read this book following my journey through “Under the Banner of Heaven” and the delusional and disturbing life of the Lafferty brothers. These were men who “knew” that what they were doing was sanctioned by God, and that their spiritual experiences were real and valid to the point where butchering a small child and her mother was completely acceptable. To be honest I could not finish the entire book as the accounts of the bastards were very unsettling, especially since I am a parent of small children.
The following is a description of the book from Amazon:
Do you believe that you can consistently beat the stock market if you put in the effort? —that some people have extrasensory perception? —that crime and drug abuse in America are on the rise? Many people hold one or more of these beliefs although research shows that they are not true. And it’s no wonder since advertising and some among the media promote these and many more questionable notions. Although our creative problem-solving capacity is what has made humans the successful species we are, our brains are prone to certain kinds of errors that only careful critical thinking can correct. This enlightening book discusses how to recognize faulty thinking and develop the necessary skills to become a more effective problem solver. Author Thomas Kida identifies "the six-pack of problems" that leads many of us unconsciously to accept false ideas:
- We prefer stories to statistics.
- We seek to confirm, not to question, our ideas.
- We rarely appreciate the role of chance and coincidence in shaping events.
- We sometimes misperceive the world around us.
- We tend to oversimplify our thinking.
- Our memories are often inaccurate.
Kida vividly illustrates these tendencies with numerous examples that demonstrate how easily we can be fooled into believing something that isn’t true. In a complex society where success—in all facets of life—often requires the ability to evaluate the validity of many conflicting claims, the critical-thinking skills examined in this informative and engaging book will prove invaluable.
About the Author: Thomas Kida (Amherst, MA) is a professor in the Isenberg School of Management at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst and the author of many articles on decision-making.
Understanding how our minds work and how our thinking patterns can lead us into practices and beliefs which may harm us, is vital in my opinion. For those of us with children, this is the most important lesson we can pass on to them, teaching them to think, and think critically.
| I treat my LDS family with respect. It is all that I can do. They have spent their whole lives immersed in Mormonism. They cannot fathom why I had my name removed and became an apostate.
My FIL works for the LDS Corporation and is a SLC temple worker. He shakes your hand and pulls you through the veil.
They love my children; actually, they absolutely adore and spoil them.
I am unique because I am strong and very knowledgeable about their religion. By strength I mean I can fully stand up and say - NO. I'm one of the few people who have actually read the entire HOTC and JOD, and pretty much all the works of BY, JFS, WW and more. They know my reason for leaving the Corporation was because I stood up to the Mormon God and said NO. I will not obey this doctrine of hate, this doctrine of abuse, this doctrine of involuntary servitude - a doctrine full of "Obey Or Die" philosophies.
I think they also know that if they began trying any kind of indoctrination, I would yank my children right out from under their noses, and they'd be alone - since my kids are the only grandchildren they have. The strength and conviction to say NO is powerful and in all truth, Mormons are cowards in that they have had a lifetime of being told saying NO is a sin.
My father, OTOH, is a rock in my life and not LDS. Sadly, he lives three States away and that makes it difficult to just be with him for comfort and camaraderie. I truly miss that, as I have no other biological family here in SLC. My wife's family is quite large, but not all LDS.
No, I treat them with respect. While in their home, I do not bow my head or fold my arms for prayers, but I keep my mouth shut, or I eyeball my son or daughter and make funny faces at them. I will always treat them with respect and allow them to follow their religion, even if I fully understand all of the issues that in a whole show their religion is nothing more than a control mechanism. I keep my mouth shut at the pictures of Mormon temples hanging on their walls, or the white and delightsome Mormon Jesus pictures - or even the multiple fresh copies of LDS Corporation magazines displayed perfectly on their coffee table. I understand it, I once lived it, I know it is Mormonism and they know no other way to live.
What else can we do? If parents or grandparents decide they want to follow Mormonism, we have to let them - it is their right. We, however, must be firm with them that our children are not LDS and LDS indoctrination will not be tolerated. This can be difficult when one spouse (such as my wife) is still Mormon. In some cases it works, as some Mormons still have the capacity to think and understand - while in other cases, some Mormons are so hard core that they become instantly offended or will go behind your back to try and indoctrinate your children. Believe me, I have been immersed in the Ex-Mormon culture for six years now - I have seen every manipulative method used by rabid Mormons to indoctrinate children behind the backs of parents (phone calls, little notes, sending of LDS Corporation magazines, taking them for "trips to the park" on Sundays, but really taking them to LDS meetings, or even secretly baptizing them without the knowledge of parents).
Patience with firmness I have found works. Be understanding - the Mormons who are still "faithful" do not know what you know, and if they are not ready to know will not be able to see nor hear your knowledge. It is only something they can seek after.
| I have many friends that are LDS. I too am LDS just inactive. At one point I was very active. I am a returned missionary and have served in the Bishopric, Elders Quorum Presidency, Young Mens Presidency, and in Stake callings. I was married in the temple and baptized my children. I attended my meetings on Sunday, did my home-teaching, and paid my tithing. I had many countless discussions with my wife about spiritual matters like how to pay our back-tithing when we were unable to pay for several months as struggling newly-weds. Spiritual matters were the cause of much angst and discussion in our home.
Things began to change when I discovered that the facts that the Church claimed were the basis of its authority and made it the Only True Church with the authority to administer the ordinances which gave passage to eternal life were false.
Gordon B Hinckley stated that either the entire story of the Church is true or it is one of the greatest frauds ever perpetrated. See, unlike most other churches, the LDS Church claims that it alone has a prophet that can speak for God and receive revelation for all church members and the world for that matter. It claims that all other religions while benevolent, do not have the full truth or God's authority which can only be held if one has the priesthood. It claims that only marriages in its temples has any everlasting power. All other marriages performed in any other churches are only for time but not eternity. This extraordinary claim of infallibility and perfection does not give the LDS much margin to admit error. In the LDS Church, things are pretty much black and white. Something is either good or evil, true or false. The prophet can either speak with God or not. Either Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by inspiration or if was a fraud. This is not a standard that the LDS Church's critics or anyone outside the Church has set for it. It is a standard that the Church has explicitly set for itself.
And so, this environment does not give the Church the leeway to admit any type of error. This is the reason why one hears so many extraordinary excuses in the Church for seemingly blatant mistakes. Some notable examples are:
1. Joseph Smith allows Blacks to hold the priesthood. In fact, one black member was even ordained as a Seventy by Joseph Smith. Brigham Young subsequently states that Blacks cannot hold the priesthood because their skin color is a curse handed down from their ancester Cain who was punished for killing his brother Abel. This is official Church policy until the 1970's. Interestingly enough, one of the Articles of Faith states that we believe that men are punished for their own transgressions and not for the sins of their fathers! This change of policy in the 1970's is explained by the Church as the result of revelation given to Spencer Kimball as a result of his fervent prayer. No mention is ever made of the civil rights movement which caused major changes in the US at around the same time or the LDS Church's efforts to start missionary work in Brazil which has a large Black population. Also no mention is made of the boycotts at athletic events in which BYU played due to civil rights issues which did not get the Church good press. These last three reasons were the more probable causes of the change in the Church's policy, not Spencer Kimball's fuzzy pondering and prayer story.
2. In all my years in the Church as a seminary student, missionary, BYU student, and in my temple attendance where supposedly the highest and most sacred teachings of the church are given, I was never taught about Joseph Smith's multiple wives, the fact that he married other men's wives while they were still married to their husbands. And that he did have sex with them. (Which was proven by sworn testimony of several of his wives in court when they were called as witnesses by the LDS Church to support cases regarding separation of Church assets from Joseph's own assets after his assassination). We are lead to believe in our Sunday School lessons and from the pulpit that Joseph Smith had one wife Emma and that he was faithful to her. We learn otherwise from an examination of Emma's own journals and letters written by Joseph himself to the many women and girls he courted while married to Emma. If there is nothing to hide, why hide these facts?
3. Why is it that tithing is so emphasized in the LDS Church along with the companion statement that "The Lord Does Not Need Your Money." I am sure that the Lord does not need the money but why does "His True Church" put so much of an emphasis on it to make it a topic of Sacrament Meeting speeches, to put it in the Sunday School, Priesthood and Relief Society lessons, to create a novel way of teaching tithing to Primary children (i.e. the teacher gives the child ten pennies and she is asked to put one penny in the tithing envelope and give it to the Bishop). If money is not important to the Church why is there an entire complex procedure around collecting and depositing tithing receipts? Why are members called to tithing settlement once a year and reminded to settle their unpaid tithes? Why are ward audits held? Why do Bishops receive letters from Church headquarters warning them that their wards have given out more Fast Offering funds to members than was collected from their wards and that they need to exhort their members to contribute more fast offering?
4. Why does the Church make such a big deal about other church's having paid ministries when in fact, only the local ward and stake leaders work for free? The LDS church is one of the largest employers in the state of Utah. Its General Authorities receive generous stipends, travel on first class airfare, receive chauffered vehicles or a vehicle allowance, and sit on the boards of church owned companies and of course receive director pay as a member of the board. Its CES (Church Educational Service) personnel receive decent pay and great benefits. In fact, the LDS Church president gets to live in a 8000 sqft+ condominium with full-time domestic help, security, and medical staff all paid for by the Church with chauffered luxury autos as well of course. Even lowly mission presidents sent to developing nations live in luxurious quarters, their children attend expensive private schools for expatriots, and the Church provides servants.
5. Why is it that many other churches and most nonprofit organizations disclose their financial activities to their members and the public by publishing financial statements. Why is it that Church members do not know how their contributions are being spent? Why does the Church refuse to publish financial statements?
6. Why does the Church own the largest beef ranch in the country, numerous radio and television stations, shopping malls, a Marriott hotel franchise in Hawaii, the Polynesian Cultural Center (which is the most visited tourist attraction in Hawaii), and at one time owned a controlling interest in the Times Mirror Newspaper in LA, its own insurance company, etc. The list goes on and on. At the same time it tells the poorest of members that it is important to pay their tithing before buying groceries. Members should have faith that the Lord would provide if they bought groceries. What do these financial concerns have to do with providing for the spiritual welfare of its members? Why is it that members are not told that the Church contributes less than 5% of its annual revenues to the poor? Why is it that investigators are not told of these things before they are baptized?
7. Why does the Church see the need to perpetuate the myth that it is the fastest growing religion when it is not? Why does it try to inflate its membership by counting inactive members in its membership number until they reach 110 years old? Most other churches remove people from their membership statistics when they are no longer active. Why does the Church have such a difficult process in order to remove someone's names from its membership rolls? Why do more than 50% of the Church's new members go inactive rather shortly after baptism if it brings such happiness to their lives? Why are their temples such as the Snowflake Arizona temple that are now "Open By Appointment Only" because they do not have enough demand to keep them open for regular hours? Building temples and splitting stakes sure give the impression that there is growth but ask any member outside of Utah how Sacrament Meeting attendance is and you will probably find that less than 1/3 of the names listed in the ward directory ever attend Sacrament Meeting!
8. On the topic of temple work for the dead. How does the Church explain that the number of baptisms and ordinances for the dead done in all its temples in a year do not equate to the even the number of people that have died in a single day alone. That temple work for the dead and its attendant time-consuming geneology work is futile at best since it is impossible to find all the records and baptize even an infinitesimally small percentage of all the people that have died in the past. The process can't even keep pace with the number of people that die today.
9. How does the Church explain away proof that Joseph Smith really can't translate ancient documents? How does it explain that the original papyrus that Joseph Smith claims to have translated the Book of Abraham from in the Pearl of Great Price is nothing more than an Egyption funerary text written by a priest and have nothing to do with Abraham? How does it explain that the Book of Mormon which is supposedly the most correct book on Earth has been edited many times and in fact the latest version includes a statement that it has been edited to conform more historically with original manuscripts?
10. How does the Church explain why the Word of Wisdom which was given for health prohibits the drinking of tea and red wine which have been proven to be good for your health by modern medicine? Once the Word of Wisdom was supposed to be for the health of the saints. Now, in light of modern research, the new excuse is that it is to test our obedience.
11. How can the Church explain why Brigham Young taught that their were tall aliens that lived on the moon, why he predicted that the United States would collapse, and why Mormons committed the larges massacre in the history of the United States by killing men, women, and children in the Mountain Meadows Massacre near Cedar City Utah?
12. If the warm comfortable feeling of the Holy Ghost is really a witness that the LDS Church is the only true church and that Gordon Hinckley is a prophet and that the Book of Mormon is true than why do members of other Churches and members of other religions also get these feelings when they pray about their own doctrines and during their own rituals? Why does watching Finding Nemo give you that same warm feeling as when you are watching a heartwarming LDS comemrcial on TV? Let's face it, there are many things that give people a warm fuzzy feeling but that warm fuzzy feeling doesn't mean that that the Church is true or that Gordon B Hinckley is a prophet. In fact, if you go to the website of Bonneville Productions which is a media company owned by the Church you will see that it specializes in manufacturing just that specific feeling that you identify with the Holy Ghost. In fact, any business that is willing to spend money to do so can enlist Bonneville's help. See the following eye-openning link to the secret behind how the Holy Ghost is manufactured. http://www.bonnint.com/story-1467e.ph...
I can go on and on. But as you can see, these are very objective historical and other concerns. 98% of the obvious reasons why the Church is a hoax can be found within the Church's own actions and writings themselves. The Church is very quick to warn its members about "Anti-Mormons" and apostacy, and scheming men but really, the evidence is readily available to anyone in the unbiased historical record for study. If you study objectively and weigh the evidence you will reach your own conclusions.
Again, there is nothing wrong with the members of the Church. Most members are well-meaning individuals who have the same attributes and faults that can be found in a population of nonmembers. I have found members that are great people and some that are not so great. There are angels and scammers in the Church as well as outside the Church. In most cases they or their forebears and family members had been duped by the Church and they are just innocents. But the Church is more than just a social club. It does not just provide a place to socialize. It literally claims to control your eternal destiny and in doing so commands your time, talents, resources, money, and your life if necessary in building itself up. Those of you that have been through the temple recognize this last sentence as a paraphrase of one of the promises that someone getting their endowment in the temple swears. This is the reason why the Church is bad. It is bad because it makes grandiose claims that are not true and claims authority that itdoes not have. In doing so it controls the minds and consciences of those it claims as members. It affects family relationships, it makes false promises and instills false hopes however appealing they may be. I can promise you by my authority that you will live forever but if I really can't deliver then again I am instilling you with false hope no matter how good the promise sounds.
Anyway, I apologize about the length of this post but it is impossible for me to really share with you my thoughts in the context of what I have experienced otherwise. Best of luck in your research and plans. My only advice is that you seek facts and draw your own conclusions logically. Sometime s the truth can be painful.
| Since leaving the Mormon Church over a year ago, God has been on my mind all of the time. I think about the plausibility of their being a God. I wonder about my existence, my life, my purpose, in general I wonder about everything that everyone else on the earth is wondering about.
I miss the once close connection that I thought I had with God. I thought that there was a loving and caring father who looked out for me and my family. It felt so great to have this father give me the secrets of the universe, and that I was chosen among billions of others to be entrusted with secrets and treasures of knowledge due to my former valiance in my pre-earthlife.
In some ways I mourn the loss of the former relationship, but in many other ways I do not. I found that relationship was very much a one sided affair, and in the end it left me angry and sad. I now consider myself an agnostic, with a hope that there is a God and that there is a continuance of life after this mortal existence, but at present I have no proof of such leaving me firmly in the "I don't know" category.
There is now so much that I question, even my own mind. I have questioned so much, that I have concluded that my mind can not be fully trusted as I have been lead to believe things to be metaphysical, when they were nothing more than an emotional response brought to me by purely physical means. I can't allow myself to be deceived again; fact and reason have now become my gospel.
Several months ago, I came across a small lecture about the nature of God on You-tube. The speaker was a Jewish Rabbi and a scientist. During his lecture he spoke about the development of the universe, the big bang, and how everything and everyone that we know originated in the stars, making an effort to emphasize that we are all at our essential element nothing more than star dust.
Then he said something which to me, has been a subject of internal debate for many months. He stated essentially that although our origins are in the stars, how did star dust become self aware? The rock under our feet began at the same place as ourselves, yet the rock remains unaware of itself, it is just rock.
It is the very notion of consciousness that leaves me to ponder, how did stardust become self-aware? And hence the quest for understanding continues.
| If You're Lurking And Reading This Board, My Dear Husband, I Have Something To Say
Article Archived: Monday, Jul 2, 2007, at 08:08 AM
Stored Under Topic: EX-MORMONISM SECTION 9
Outside Link To Article: RIGHT CLICK - COPY LINK LOCATION
Original Author Of Article: your wife, who still loves you | TOP | |
I hope you ARE reading this board, and researching it in a proper manner instead of trolling.
There's a lot of stuff here you need to read, and research, and learn about.
Here's something I want to tell you. I don't think that you participating in the Mormon church means that you are a failure. So many times when I've brought up an objection with the church, you get so offended and take it personally. I'm not attacking you. I'm trying to get you to see that an organization you are dangerously addictive to is harmful, hurtful, and slowly chipping away at our marriage.
If you decide to leave the church, I'm not going to say "I told you so" or shove it in your face. I will, honestly, be thrilled to pieces, but that is all I will say about it.
You can still be proud of the dedication and strength of character it took to serve a mission. You can still remember your trip with fond memories. I don't expect you to act as if it never happened. Learn from it, and move on.
As far as I am concerned there is nothing wrong with still socializing with your church friends, even though I realize that if you leave, their main concern will be getting you back, not being your friend.
Sweetheart, I am tired of our marriage being trivialized by your bishop because you married a nevermo who has no intention of joining. Don't you understand? We both love each other so much, how could anyone have the right to criticize or otherwise assess our marriage. Do you really think that you would have been happy with a mormon approved wife? We both think we got it right the first time. It is none of his business who you married.
I am tired of your professional skills being taken advantage of by those in your church. I have no problem with you helping out every now and again--I'm quite proud of you when you do that, actually--but being gone for hours on end several days in a row trying to unsnarl a problem that keeps you away from your family is too much. They are taking advantage of your intelligence, your skill and it's time to let them figure out their own mess.
The church keeps maneuvering itself so that it is a wedge between us. You know there are more reasons that I won't list here. Please don't be afraid to leave if that is what you decide you must do. It won't say anything against you negatively--the power of this church is that they fool decent, caring people like yourself to give their all until there's nothing left. I love you. Please come home.
With all of my love, now and forever--
your wife
| I rode the same van for 42 years.
Why? Well it just seemed like the right vehicle for families and I love families, especially my own. The Van’s big, for one thing. Plenty of room for everyone, great air conditioning too. No matter how hot it got you always felt good (or at least you were told you felt good.) And it had a beautiful stereo even if it only played one station. Those boxes piped the sound into every square inch of that van. You couldn’t NOT hear the music even if you wanted to. Too bad the dj sounded like some geriatric case on valium.
All kinds of safety features too. Seat belts on every seat and straps hanging from the ceiling. Harnesses, child safety seats, head restraints. Permanently inflated front and side air bags to further restrict motion. Man, when they strapped you in you couldn’t move a muscle. And the owners manual said it was all flame proof as long as you stayed current on the warranty. As a father who loves his family more than anything, I would have to say it was the perceived safety that kept me riding that van for longer than I probably should have.
But one day I was looking out the window and I got the impression that we really weren’t moving at all. I know that sounds odd but it just felt like we were going nowhere. So I looked a little closer and found a little bb hole. Just a small little crack I could look through.
What I saw stunned me. We were stopped right in the middle of the freeway with vehicles of all types zooming past us going in all different directions! Some were even going in the wrong direction. (It made me glad I was at least going nowhere). Apparently, what I thought were windows were in fact screens onto which a perfect image was projected. That little bb hole was my first look into the real world.
So I told my wife I wanted to get out and look around. I wanted to check the tires, check the wiper blades, look under the hood.
She was terrified but I had to do it anyway so I tried the door and it was stuck! In fact EVERY door was stuck! I ended up having to crawl out a window. (It was sure a hell of a lot easier getting in.)
Sure enough the tires were flat, the wiper blades didn’t work and there was no engine. Amazingly, nobody in the van wanted to hear about it. “There’s no engine!”, I would say. The more I tried to show them, the more scared they got and they started making vroom noises to drown out what I was saying. And the more I tried, the louder the vrooming got. Eventually, I just shook my head and gave up.
But my wife and kids listened. It took awhile but I got them all out. We’ve been out for a long time now and we drive many different cars. Sometimes we walk. Sometimes we even fly. But the bottom line is that now we can go anywhere and do anything we want. The whole world is open to us and all those safety features I thought we needed turned out to be just so much worry over nothing. Life couldn’t be better.
I think I’ll buy me a Porsche.
| I recall several experiences I had as a Mormon. They were burned into my memory.
I recall being beaten up by my father because I would not go to sacrament meeting.
I recall a home teaching companion telling me he would "beat me up" because I did not want to go home teaching.
I recall being forced to sleep in the same room with a missionary companion I did not like, because the Mission President said I would "resort to immorality" if I slept alone. I just wanted a few hours of peace.
I recall being insulted and belittled in front of a bunch of other missionaries by my Mission President. He loved to belittle those who were not doing exactly what he wanted.
I recall being called out of the audience to speak by my Mission President, with no notice. He loved that little trick. I came to hate it. A small thing, perhaps, but very irritating. Its a method of control.
I recall my parents arguing over the words of Chauncey Riddle, the BYU buffoon. The point of the argument was whether women or men lacked spirituality.
I recall my parents being worked up about "humanists." It went on for months. Chauncey Riddle had given a fireside speech about humanists, and suddenly everyone was a humanist.
I recall trying to talk to my father about masturbation, and having him explode when I brought it up. He yelled "Who taught you?" "How did you learn about it?" He rushed to the book case, and pulled out " Mormon Doctrine," and lectured me from that text. No understanding, no kindness, no kind words. Just anger.
I recall my mother exploding because I told her I was dating a non-Mormon girl. It was totally intolerable.
I recall the power of ostracism when I dated a girl who was of a different race. The neighborhood, entire, gossiped and talked about it. My parents were hysterical, embarrassed, and sobbing. A major scandal.
I recall BYU Security being used for religious enforcement at BYU. They were the Taliban arm of BYU, and people came to despise them.
I recall the sheer horror I felt when I went to the temple, and cut my own throat. No-one could explain it to me. Why did a church do this? What was spiritual about it? No answers.
Lots of memories of Mormonism. Funny how nasty the "true church" really was.
| I have just finished chapter 6 of Quinn’s “Early Mormonism and the Magic World View” in a continued study of all works I might be expected to have researched as I write my own books concerning some major aspects of Smith’s hoax. I don’t have much time to post on the board now, as I am constantly researching and writing, seven days a week. However, today is Sunday and as most of you are in the States are just getting up, I decided to give anyone interested, something to wake up to, while I vent my spleen a little, as for the last couple of days I have felt quite low, so this morning is a break from the norm for me to just chat about things. I know we all talk about how long it takes to get over the trauma of having been a member; for some it is easier as their brush with the Church was short lived and hardly affects them now; and for others, like me, who enthusiastically joined as a teenager, believing everything without question for forty odd years, raising the next generation to believe the same, only to discover you were lied to; it is not as easy. Everyone you know and love is in the Church and it is only when you leave, you discover that unconditional love is something preached but rarely practiced.
We have no real friends now. Two of my daughters (I have 8 children 21 grandchildren & 2 on the way) one married to a Bishop, the other to a member of a Stake Presidency, keep eight grandchildren from me and have done for over three years now. When children ignore you and keep your grandchildren from you because they don’t want an evil influence near them, you cope; but sometimes you do break down and wonder if life is actually worthwhile any more, after so many years of close loving family relationships. My first wife died a few days after 9/11 from cancer and my youngest daughter married shortly after, so I was alone. I finally remarried, 18 months after I left the Church, (saved my life really) to a young lady, much younger than me, who had also left the Church and understood all I was going through and chose me and asked me to marry her. Although shocked at first, I most certainly would have no longer been alive had I not eventually said yes. I cannot do “alone,” never had been alone and never knew how itfelt. It sucks! Those two daughters have not even told their children I remarried, as they disapprove of my wife being younger than me. Considering the LDS eternal perspective, that seems illogical although I understand their reasoning. The mistake of believing in the Church can never be undone once you have raised the next generation to believe; especially when for all of their lives, they admired you as one of their most prominent Stake and Regional leaders. Anyway, enough of the pity party, this post is supposed to be therapeutic for me so let’s get on...
Quinn’s chapter six is “Mormon Scriptures, the Magic World View, and Rural New York’s Intellectual Life.”
I like Quinn’s other works, (and some of this one) they are really helpful for research verification, references and information. The Magic World View likewise, has some good stuff in early chapters although there is far too much material that really is not needed for him to make the points he covers. A shorter and less referenced book would be far more compelling and enjoyable to read. The overkill seems to mount. However when I read chapter six, I had to admit that it transcended all reason to write so much drivel. I have to admit that I really struggled to get to the end and be able to say I have actually read it. It covers 58 pages and contains 485 references covering a further 43 pages. I have never read such a boring chapter of a book in all my life.
We should remember first and foremost that whilst Quinn was excommunicated for publishing some of his works, (as “they were not helpful”) last I heard, he still claims to be a faithful believing member from outside the Church. In ch. 6., Quinn tries, in his own mind to write all the possible evidence regarding occult references in scripture. He seems to chase his tail, page after page after page, locating the most obscure materials, sometimes published decades or hundreds of years before Smith, as if he may (or may not) have found ideas from those sources that found their way into the Book of Mormon. Bearing in mind that Quinn believes it true, I can’t understand how he thinks the influence (may have) existed so deeply. Smith would neither have had the time nor (judging from his real history) the inclination, to study so much for his ideas. Some perhaps, but probably very little of what Quinn referenced. Coupled with his father’s dream which became Lehi’s, The View of the Hebrew and the KJV, his imagination was good enough. His own knowledge of the occult and folk magic passed on to him through his family was more than enough. Additionally, Quinn seems to feel the need to postulate ideas that are absolutely beyond reason to include. Try getting your head around this idea from page 199:
“This necromantic parallel to the name Nephi may help to explain a historical puzzle in Mormon history. In the 1839 manuscript of Smith’s official history and its printed versions of 1842 and 1851, the name of the messenger who appeared three times in one night of 1823 was stated as Nephi rather than Moroni. Since Smith’s earliest autobiography (1832) gave the angel’s name as “Maroni,” LDS historians have defined the use of Nephi as “a clerical error.”
However, a clerical error is not a convincing explanation. As editor of Times and Seasons in 1842 Smith published the Nephi reference, which he could have corrected but did not.”
Quinn then explains that Mary M. Whitmer for one, always called the angel “brother Nephi” and that the evidence is that after 1830 Joseph and others referred to the angel as Nephi. His explanation is that since “Nephes” was a designation for departed spirits “called out by Magicians and Necromancers,” these Mormon’s could have used the cognate “Nephi” as a generic reference to the messenger Moroni.”
Please excuse me if I do not use apologetic terms, for I am not an apologist: I have never read such nonsense in all my life. I thought Quinn better than that. He still believes and has closed his eyes to two things.
1. There is not a snowballs chance in the hot place that Smith used Nephi (instead of Nephes) as a generic term. He already had the name Nephi well established in his published Book of Mormon long before ever writing an account of the vision and he decided to call the angel by that NAME. It was after all, in his imagination and he made it all up as he went along.
2. Quinn, amazingly, despite his extensive research and thousands of references, chooses to lie outright in order to then bring out his “Nephes” idea. Note that he states “Smith’s earliest autobiography (1832) gave the angel’s name as “Maroni.””
I have already concluded my research and written a full chapter and analysis on the Nephi – Moroni problem. I can tell you that in the original 1832 manuscript, despite Quinn’s assertion, Smith categorically does NOT say that. He says that “the angel of the Lord came…” and then (the visiting angel) specifically said “…there were plates of gold upon which was engraven by Maroni and his fathers…” the angel that was present and speaking with Smith clearly identifying that Maroni (now spelled Mor | |